The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Spiny Norman »

Mr Man wrote: I would certainly agree that what is being put forward as "vipasana" is really just an exercise in concentration...
Could you give some examples?
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Spiny Norman
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Spiny Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:... but we are stuck with it until there is sufficient insight, not conceptual thinking about it, but actual insight into the nature of the "self," into the conditioned co-produced nature of the khandhas.
I tend to try observe the sense of self directly - and of course it keeps changing. ;)
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

One could grasp the teachings of anatta by the tail, as the metaphor goes, and decide they mean there is no self-doer.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Dear Mr Man,
but a ritualized practice may actually help one give up attachment to rules and rituals and the belief in self, don't you think?
By simple logic, if ones thinks that ritualized practice is the way, one will not give up attachment to rules and rituals.
One gives up only when one realizes than it is the wrong way.

Similarly, if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?

Best wishes,

D.F
perkele
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by perkele »

So, in short:

Formal, "ritualized" meditation practice is useless.

People who, say, routinely sit 30 minutes every morning, practicing anapanasati in that posture, or whichever type of formal practice, should give that up. It just fosters clinging.

Anyone agree?
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DNS
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by DNS »

There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-experts but not
those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also
meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and
they will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the
multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans.

Anguttara Nikaya 4.46
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

porpoise wrote:
Mr Man wrote: I would certainly agree that what is being put forward as "vipasana" is really just an exercise in concentration...
Could you give some examples?
Hi porpoise, I don't want to take the thread of topic here and I know my view is not shared by many, but for example the sweeping technique.
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

dhamma follower wrote:Dear Mr Man,
but a ritualized practice may actually help one give up attachment to rules and rituals and the belief in self, don't you think?
By simple logic, if ones thinks that ritualized practice is the way, one will not give up attachment to rules and rituals.
One gives up only when one realizes than it is the wrong way.

Similarly, if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?

Best wishes,

D.F
Hi dhamma follower
Did you mean to address this to me?
:anjali:
Coyote
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Coyote »

Robertk ect.,

Do you think it would be silabbata paramasa for a Bhikkhu to devote time to formal meditation? How about for a lay person to meditate, but not "vipassana", say - Brahmavihara meditation or recollection of the Triple Gem? How about bowing or attending puja, chanting? Where is the line between formal and non formal practice anyway?
I ask this to get a clear understanding of your opinion.

Anyway, couldn't one argue that formal sitting practice helps build concentration thus making "mindfulness" (in conventional terms) clearer?
:anjali:
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Dear Mr Man,
but a ritualized practice may actually help one give up attachment to rules and rituals and the belief in self, don't you think?
By simple logic, if ones thinks that ritualized practice is the way, one will not give up attachment to rules and rituals.
One gives up only when one realizes than it is the wrong way.

Similarly, if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?

Best wishes,

D.F
Hi dhamma follower
Did you mean to address this to me?
:anjali:
My appology! I meant to address Dan74 ! :toilet:

D.F
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Greeting David,
David N. Snyder wrote:There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-experts but not
those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also
meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and
they will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the
multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans.

Anguttara Nikaya 4.46
Can you tell us what are the pali words for "meditators" and "Dhamma-experts" in the sutta provided? Tks

Brgrds,

D.F
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Coyote wrote:Robertk ect.,

Do you think it would be silabbata paramasa for a Bhikkhu to devote time to formal meditation? How about for a lay person to meditate, but not "vipassana", say - Brahmavihara meditation or recollection of the Triple Gem? How about bowing or attending puja, chanting? Where is the line between formal and non formal practice anyway?
I ask this to get a clear understanding of your opinion.

Anyway, couldn't one argue that formal sitting practice helps build concentration thus making "mindfulness" (in conventional terms) clearer?
:anjali:
The criticism of formal sitting practice that is stated here is overly rigid, and it lacks a maturity and insight into actual meditation practice. The reality is, or course, that as we start our practice that we will likely not reflect the Dhamma at its highest levels, but this is to be expected. We can only start from where we actually are. However, as we put the teachings into practice, open to what arises as a result of the practice, fortunately things can change as we gain insight into, and maturity in, the Dhamma, as we learn not to hang onto expectations and results. The magical, ritualistic thinking drops away and our motivation changes, and this is the result of the Eightfold Path in action.

Clearly, as the suttas show, the Buddha taught the importance of formal meditation practice as having an important, if not central, place in the overall practice of the Dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Coyote
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Coyote »

Tiltbillings, thanks for the reply, and I agree.
However, I specifically wanted to know Robertk's opinion on those questions as I don't think thus far in the thread the limits/boundaries of the "anti-formal practice" view have been clearly stated.

:anjali:
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Coyote wrote:Tiltbillings, thanks for the reply, and I agree.
However, I specifically wanted to know Robertk's opinion on those questions as I don't think thus far in the thread the limits/boundaries of the "anti-formal practice" view have been clearly stated.

:anjali:
You might want to do a search for Sujin and read through the various threads that pop-up. Robertk is advocating a very particular point of view, which should be fine, except that the Sujin point of view, in the hands of her followers, can be highly critical and dismissive of other points of view. The issue here for me is not that the Sujin teachings are or are not efficacious; rather, the concern I have is about the uncompromising criticism of formal meditation practice (of whatever style) as not being efficacious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote: the concern I have is about the uncompromising criticism of formal meditation practice (of whatever style) as not being efficacious.
Hi Tilt
If that was the case why does it cause such concern? Do you think that the very systamatic approaches to meditataion are efficacious, in terms of a higher goal? If this is your view, what do you base this on?
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