The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

Who decided to start this thread? Robert. Case closed.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

So, the point is, in classical Theravada, that we can talk about the "causes of wisdom" using conventional sutta language or the the Abhidhamma style language. And now we can get on with the topic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SamKR »

As I understand it: There is an illusory (== conventional?) self who decides. But there is no self who decides, there are only decisions.
I would appreciate any correction to my views (from both sides :)).
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

SamKR wrote:As I understand it: There is an illusory (== conventional?) self who decides. But there is no self who decides, there are only decisions.
I would appreciate any correction to my views (from both sides :)).
What is illusory is not the sense of a self, for that is a product of the khandhas; rather, what is illusory is the sense of the self as being permanent and an unchanging agent.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:What is illusory is not the sense of a self, for that is a product of the khandhas
So you believe that sakkaya-ditthi is real in the ultimate sense? I always thought you took paramattha dhammas as illusory.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What is illusory is not the sense of a self, for that is a product of the khandhas
So you believe that sakkaya-ditthi is real in the ultimate sense? I always thought you took paramattha dhammas as illusory.

Kevin
No and no.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SamKR »

tiltbillings wrote: What is illusory is not the sense of a self, for that is a product of the khandhas;
The fact that "there is a sense of self" is not an illusion. But the "sense of self" itself is an illusion or a product of illusion.
tiltbillings wrote: rather, what is illusory is the sense of the self as being permanent and an unchanging agent.
Yes. If "sense of self" itself is an illusion or conditioned by illusion then anything based on this (example: it being permanent and an unchanging agent) is illusory.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

SamKR wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: What is illusory is not the sense of a self, for that is a product of the khandhas;
The fact that "there is a sense of self" is not an illusion. But the "sense of self" itself is an illusion or a product of illusion.
I do not necessarily agree with that. The sense of self is a product of the khandhas, according the Buddha, but I am not really following you here. A bit of clarification, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. " SN III 46.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Polar Bear
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Polar Bear »

Then a certain brahman approached the Blessed One; having approached the Blessed One, he exchanged friendly greetings. After pleasant conversation had passed between them, he sat to one side. Having sat to one side, the brahman spoke to the Blessed One thus:

“Venerable Gotama, I am one of such a doctrine, of such a view: ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer.’”[1]

“I have not, brahman, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself [2] — say: ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’? What do you think, brahmin, is there an element or principle of initiating or beginning an action?”[3]

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“When there is an element of initiating, are initiating beings [4] clearly discerned?”

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“So, brahmin, when there is the element of initiating, initiating beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. [5]

“What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of exertion [6] ... is there an element of effort [7] ... is there an element of steadfastness [8] ... is there an element of persistence [9] ... is there an element of endeavoring?” [10]

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“When there is an element of endeavoring, are endeavoring beings clearly discerned?”

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?”

“Superb, Venerable Gotama! Superb, Venerable Gotama! Venerable Gotama has made the Dhamma clear in many ways, as though he were turning upright what had been turned upside down, revealing what had been concealed, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark: ‘Those who have eyes see forms!’ Just so, the Venerable Gotama has illuminated the Dhamma in various ways. I go to Venerable Gotama as refuge, and to the Dhamma, and to the assembly of monks. From this day, for as long as I am endowed with breath, let Venerable Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge.”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
Then a certain . . . follower who has gone to him for refuge.”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html
Thanks for that. The Anguttara Nikaya is full of surprising things.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Polar Bear
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Polar Bear »

No hay problema Senor. Twas a pleasure and a privilege.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

polarbuddha101 wrote:No hay problema Senor. Twas a pleasure and a privilege.

:namaste:
It is an interesting topic. Though it is not talked about directly in this way in a classical sense, much of the practice is about dealing with the sense "self" that we are stuck with until we get some degree of awakening. The precepts, the social emotions (lovingkindness, etc), meditation are all part of that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SamKR »

tiltbillings wrote:
SamKR wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: What is illusory is not the sense of a self, for that is a product of the khandhas;
The fact that "there is a sense of self" is not an illusion. But the "sense of self" itself is an illusion or a product of illusion.
I do not necessarily agree with that. The sense of self is a product of the khandhas, according the Buddha, but I am not really following you here. A bit of clarification, please.
The truth that "there are illusions" is not an illusion. In the same way, the truth that "there is a sense of self" is not an illusion.
But "sense of self" is a product of the khandhas and ignorance, and therefore illusory.

Thus, when there is ignorance there is an illusory self who decides and ignorantly thinks that it made its decisions and owns (or grasps or clings to) them. When this is that is.
But when there is no ignorance then there is no illusion of self that makes decisions. When this is not, that is not.
Last edited by SamKR on Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re:The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

SamKR wrote:
The truth that "there are illusions" is not an illusion. In the same way, the truth that "there is a sense of self" is not an illusion.
But "sense of self" is a product of the khandhas and ignorance, and therefore illusory.
Thanks. I'd state it a bit differently, but I don't think we are talking at odds here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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