The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I did not say there was a self or person in any absolute sense, and you are being, again, evasive.

Maybe in your opinion I am being evasive. But you just feel that way because you do not understand the subtle concept being presented. That is not my problem.

tiltbillings wrote:The nice thing is that your point of view -- We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord -- is an outlier, not really consistent with the core of the Buddha's teachings.

Once again, you have completely misunderstood. Trying reading the Abhidhamma and you will understand finally the causes and conditions for the arising of dhammas. It appears you are ignorant of of those because you have not read the 7'th book. Must I remind you that this is the Classical Theravada Forum? Here we go by the Abhidhamma, not the Tiltbillings new-fangled dhamma. Please post respecting the nature of the forum you are in (you are the last person we should have to remind of this, but sadly, we do...).

If you are incapable of understanding the classical texts and commentaries that is not our problem. However, at the very least you should respect boundaries and not post in this forum contrary to those texts. It's very unbecoming.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:15 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?


It's also impossible for the conditions to arise on their own accord...

:anjali:

Actually you are right. I worded that incorrectly. They do not arise of our own accord, nor do they arise of their own accord, they arise because of multiple causes and conditions.

Kevin
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:22 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I did not say there was a self or person in any absolute sense, and you are being, again, evasive.

Maybe in your opinion I am being evasive. But you just feel that way because you do not understand the subtle concept being presented. That is not my problem.
What you are presenting is not subtle, and I do understand it. I simply do not agree with it.

tiltbillings wrote:The nice thing is that your point of view -- We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord -- is an outlier, not really consistent with the core of the Buddha's teachings.

Once again, you have completely misunderstood. Trying reading the Abhidhamma and you will understand finally the causes and conditions for the arising of dhammas. It appears you are ignorant of of those because you have not read the 7'th book. Must I remind you that this is the Classical Theravada Forum? Here we go by the Abhidhamma, not the Tiltbillings new-fangled dhamma. Please post respecting the nature of the forum you are in (you are the last person we should have to remind of this, but sadly, we do...).
I have read much of the Abhidhamma Pitaka that is English translation, and that is not the problem. Also, what I am presenting is classical Buddhaghosa VisuddhiMagga Theravada. Also, this is not the Abhidhamma section.

If you are incapable of understanding the classical texts and commentaries that is not our problem. However, at the very least you should respect boundaries and not post in this forum contrary to those texts. It's very unbecoming.
Thank you for your concern.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.


Yes, and I think you also helped him to write that sentence by supplying him some of the necessary conditions. :)
Of course, but the choice was his.

No, the so-called "choice" does not belong to a person. There was cetana, yes, along with other mental factors, but those are just states of mind arising. It is not a "me". It is the mechanical functioning of a mind-stream (that, at least at one point, thought of "itself" as a being of self).
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:27 pm

Virgo wrote:Actually you are right. I worded that incorrectly. They do not arise of our own accord, nor do they arise of their own accord, they arise because of multiple causes and conditions.
Of which choice is one.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:29 pm

Virgo wrote:not belong to a person. There was cetana, yes, along with other mental factors, but those are just states of mind arising. It is not a "me". It is the mechanical functioning of a mind-stream (that, at least at one point, thought of "itself" as a being of self). You are much better off actually studying the Abhidhamma and then coming back and discussing this with us at that point in the future Tilt. Without that, you just create problems here with your misunderstanding. Maybe you are just better off posting in the other forums and not the Classical ones? Of course, I am not averse to you posting here at all, it just seems you are very ignorant of certain concepts and instead of asking about them and trying to learn about them, you come off as very confrontational. Maybe it is my mistake, but that is just how you appear.
Your mistake. In an ultimate sense, no person, no problem. Also, there is nothing I have that said contradicts Buddhaghosa.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:39 pm

Hi Kevin,

I don't want to barge in, but I want to share that I remember when I participated here in the beginning (a few years ago), some of Tilt's posts would seem to really get on my nerves. I viewed that as my shortcoming.

Right now, they don't seem to bother me anymore, which is quite a change for me... in fact, I enjoy them. I'm appreciative of Tilt's contribution, along with experience. I even think of him as one of the essential members on here, if I might say so.

:anjali:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Viscid » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:44 pm

Tilt's posts are some of the best on this forum. He's aggressive, but that's part of his charm. If your argument is solid, his bark shouldn't frighten you into reacting defensively.

Also, it sounds like robert's 'sampajanna' is a bit of a bastardization of it-- I don't think one can go about their day at work and picking up kids and blah blah maintaining clear comprehension at all times. I imagine it's more appropriate for monks where there's a routine which can be accomplished without much extraordinary forethought. The chaos of modern laylife is not very conductive at all for what I imagine 'sampajanna' to be. Though I could be biased since I myself am undisciplined and lazy.
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"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:48 pm

Thank you, gentlemen, for the kind words, but back to the topic, please.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dan74 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:59 pm

I am not sure if it's just me or if this sounds like an old family dispute, obscure to all but the participants. So at the risk of being thick and obnoxious can I ask if this is related to the previous debate of sati as recollection vs sati as bare awareness?

In other words there are people who favour recalling the teachings and using them as a tool to deal with mindstates and there are people who favour bringing full attention to the mind or engaging in a more immediate way?

Does wisdom arise from recollection of teachings or does it arise from...?
_/|\_
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby gendun » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:13 pm

Dan74 wrote:I am not sure if it's just me or if this sounds like an old family dispute, obscure to all but the participants. So at the risk of being thick and obnoxious can I ask if this is related to the previous debate of sati as recollection vs sati as bare awareness?

In other words there are people who favour recalling the teachings and using them as a tool to deal with mindstates and there are people who favour bringing full attention to the mind or engaging in a more immediate way?

Does wisdom arise from recollection of teachings or does it arise from...?

Speaking personally I am finding the debate both interesting and valuable. I hope it is not derailed.
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:38 pm

Dan74 wrote:I am not sure if it's just me or if this sounds like an old family dispute, obscure to all but the participants. So at the risk of being thick and obnoxious can I ask if this is related to the previous debate of sati as recollection vs sati as bare awareness?
It is something a bit different.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:41 am

Greeting Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.


Yes, and I think you also helped him to write that sentence by supplying him some of the necessary conditions. :)
Of course, but the choice was his.


As it has been said, the choice doesn't belong to anyone, it is cetana perfoming its functions, but ignorance takes it for "mine" or "his".

Understanding that it is not "me", but only elements arising by conditions is what constitutes right view, an indispensable factor of the Path, isn't it?

Best wishes,
D.F
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:36 am

dhamma follower wrote:As it has been said, the choice doesn't belong to anyone, it is cetana perfoming its functions, but ignorance takes it for "mine" or "his".

Understanding that it is not "me", but only elements arising by conditions is what constitutes right view, an indispensable factor of the Path, isn't it?


Hi Dhamma Follower,

I don't think that the right view comes from understanding that it's "not" "me"... but the fact that the "me" is anatta. It is a construction, just like everything else... and impermanent. That is why trying to cling to it as something substantial would cause dukkha.

People who get hanged up over the words like "me," "my" or "mine" as if they were the sources of dukkha, still seem to get dukkha about it. Why?

:anjali:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:11 am

dhamma follower wrote:
As it has been said, the choice doesn't belong to anyone, it is cetana perfoming its functions, but ignorance takes it for "mine" or "his".

Understanding that it is not "me", but only elements arising by conditions is what constitutes right view, an indispensable factor of the Path, isn't it?

Best wishes,
D.F
It depends, but until you have awakening you have to work with the "me" and "mine." Also, since this is the classical section we can talk about things using conventional or ultimate language. Conventional language is less clumsy.

The Buddha did not speak falsely:

    By oneself is evil done, by oneself is one defiled;
    By oneself is evil shunned, by oneself is one refined.

    To polish or stain, on ourselves it depends,
    For a person cannot by another be cleansed.

    (Dhammapada 165)

See:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... onal#p5963


From the commentary to the Anguttara Nikaya:
Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-kathā, whereas
references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric
individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of
mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-kathā. One who is capable of understanding
and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out
in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on
sammuti-kathā. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting
the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the
Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-kathā.

To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-kathā , the teaching is not
presented on the basis of paramattha-kathā, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening
to the truth through paramattha-kathā, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-kathā.
There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their
meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which
each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the
suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-kathā. It is by taking into
consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the
Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way
of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to
Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena.
AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55

http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf
sammuti-kathā is not inferior to paramattha-kathā. And since this is not an Abhidhamma section we need not be limited to trying to speak in Abhidhamma-ese.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:05 am

I have moved the posts about the conventional self making choices to a new topic so as not to derail this topic which is about causes for wisdom
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15985
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:06 am

So, the point is, in classical Theravada, that we can talk about the "causes of wisdom" using conventional sutta language or the the Abhidhamma style language. And now we can get on with the topic.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:08 am

robertk wrote:I have moved the posts about the conventional self making choices to a new topic so as not to derail this topic which is about causes for wisdom.
And I moved them back, given that that was naught more than a clarification of how we can talk about this subject and was not off topic.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SamKR » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:48 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, Robert, I'll ask you again, what does what you are advocating look like as an actual daily practice?

Here is a summary of yesterday's practice.
Wake up, check email, brush teeth. Go to coffee shop, read local newscpaper while indulging in brewed coffee. Go to gym, 30 minutes on stepmill then a 1km swim. Go to office, have first meeting of day. Forget about second schefuled meeting, arrive 15 minutes late for that.
Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.
Finish work early, go to shopping center. Buy a shirt at La Martina. Sales girl asks where I am from and whether she can come to new zealand with me. Feel 10 years under my age after that comment.
Have a coffe and tuna bun at Belly sandwich shop, outstanding service and taste. And so it goes...

Suppose my "practice" yesterday was similar to yours as quoted above...and then:

sit on a cushion, start observing breath for half an hour, and then observe bodily sensations for another half an hour -- while contemplating the Buddha's teachings about anicca, dukkha, anatta; while observing arising and passing away; while observing reduction of raga-dosa-moha and increase in equanimity.
Would this last addition of mine be considered a part of daily practice for the sake of wisdom?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:57 am

SamKR wrote:
robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, Robert, I'll ask you again, what does what you are advocating look like as an actual daily practice?

Here is a summary of yesterday's practice.
Wake up, check email, brush teeth. Go to coffee shop, read local newscpaper while indulging in brewed coffee. Go to gym, 30 minutes on stepmill then a 1km swim. Go to office, have first meeting of day. Forget about second schefuled meeting, arrive 15 minutes late for that.
Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.
Finish work early, go to shopping center. Buy a shirt at La Martina. Sales girl asks where I am from and whether she can come to new zealand with me. Feel 10 years under my age after that comment.
Have a coffe and tuna bun at Belly sandwich shop, outstanding service and taste. And so it goes...

Suppose my "practice" yesterday was similar to yours as quoted above...and then:

sit on a cushion, start observing breath for half an hour, and then observe bodily sensations for another half an hour -- while contemplating the Buddha's teachings about anicca, dukkha, anatta; while observing arising and passing away; while observing reduction of raga-dosa-moha and increase in equanimity.
Would this last addition of mine be considered a part of daily practice for the sake of wisdom?

Dear Sam
let's think about silabataparamasa. This is one of the things that has to be eliminated for nibbana to arise.

It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.

And even the more subtle - and ostensibly correct - 'contemplating anicca , dukkha, anatta ' at leisure or whatever, is close to an idea of a self that can decide to have these type of contemplations.
The comment about 'observing rising and passing away" . To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this. After all in in truth the elements are rising and falling trillions of times in a second.

Eveyone, even non-buddhist, see/know that things change, that at one moment there is seeing, one moment hearing, that there is a flux of everchanging feelings : but there is an idea of a self who is doing so, there is no real seeing of the actual separation of mind aand matter.
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