The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

I repeat my analogy of the seeing process

Think of the seeing process. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every brief moment of seeing an object arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise.
We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.....

So we don't send children to a special school to train them how to see or hear or taste or smell. If they have eyes and ears, tongue and nose they will experience color, sound etc. All they have to do to see is open their eyes.
But if they don't have eyes or if their eyes are damaged no amount of training , determination, effort and willpower will make seeing occur.

Likewise there are objects such as feeling, hardness, desire, aversion and all the other objects listed in the satipathhana sutta arising all the time . Whether one focuses or doesn't focus. Whether one sits under a tree, urinates, defecates, walks up and down, looks behind, looks in front the objects are appearing. But just as color is beyond the ken of a blind man , so the real nature of each object is hidden to the one without right view.

On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the eye of wisdom is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

robertk wrote: Good to see you..
Likewise. :P

Kevin
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

robertk wrote:I repeat my analogy of the seeing process

Think of the seeing process. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every brief moment of seeing an object arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise.
We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.....

So we don't send children to a special school to train them how to see or hear or taste or smell. If they have eyes and ears, tongue and nose they will experience color, sound etc. al they have to do to see is open their eyes.
But if they don't have eyes or if their eyes are damaged no amount of training , determination, effort and willpower will make seeing occur.
Likewise there are objects such as feeling, hardness, desire, aversion and all the other objects listed in the satipathhana sutta arising all the time . Whether one focuses or doesn't focus. Whether one sits under a tree, urinates, defecates, walks up and down, looks behind, looks in front the objects are appearing. But just as color is beyond the ken of a blind man , so the real nature of each object is hidden to the one without right view.
On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the mental eye if seeing is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.
That is why the path is so narrow.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:I
On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the mental eye if seeing is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.
So one just has to have the right conceptual structure to see clearly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
That is why the path is so narrow.
Actually, if it were as simple as robertk's seems to present it, it would be very easy, indeed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
That is why the path is so narrow.
Actually, if it were as simple as robertk's seems to present it, it would be very easy, indeed.
No. it's not easy, nor difficult, because it is not a thing we "do". It occurs, slowly. What occurs? With conceptual Right View, wisdom on the level of experience occurs when conditions are right as we move through the days, weeks, etc. This happens slowly. We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord. After all, what we are seeing is anatta in action itself. Slowly, over many, many lifetimes, many of them, wisdom gets deeper and deeper.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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is there a conventional self who decides?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
There is no 'I', Tilt, nor a 'you'. C'mon I thought you were a Buddhist. :guns: :tongue:

There are arising dhammas, but not a self person.

Kevin
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SDC
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SDC »

Welcome back, Kev!

I see you and Tilt found each other :tongue:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

SDC wrote:Welcome back, Kev!

I see you and Tilt found each other :tongue:
Thank you.

:tongue:
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
There is no 'I', Tilt, nor a 'you'. C'mon I thought you were a Buddhist. :guns: :tongue:

There are arising dhammas, but not a self person.

Kevin
I did not say there was a self or person in any absolute sense, and you are being, again, evasive. The nice thing is that your point of view -- We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord -- is an outlier, not really consistent with the core of the Buddha's teachings.
  • “Owners of their kamma are beings, heirs of their kamma, kamma is their womb from which they are born, their kamma is their friend, their refuge. Whatever kamma they perform, good or bad, there of they will be the heirs.” - MN 135; iii 206; MLDB p. 1057.
  • This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38. * *
In other words, by our actions we can, indeed, adjust "those conditions" that give rise to insight and awakening by cultivating the precepts, lovingkindness, compassion, generosity, concentration, mindfulness, right view, etc. Adjusting those conditions is the whole point of the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
beeblebrox
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by beeblebrox »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
It's also impossible for the conditions to arise on their own accord...

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
I think it's also impossible for the conditions to arise on their own accord...

:anjali:
And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
beeblebrox
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by beeblebrox »

tiltbillings wrote:And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.
Yes, and I think you also helped him to write that sentence by supplying him some of the necessary conditions. :)

:sage:
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.
Yes, and I think you also helped him to write that sentence by supplying him some of the necessary conditions. :)
Of course, but the choice was his.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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