jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan...
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by alan... »

Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:ideed. what was this school (other than the name, i know that and found nothing in a web search)? do you know of any other place i can read about them?
I don't know such places. You may find useful the book:

The Origin of Buddhist Meditation
By Alexander Wynne

http://books.google.com/books?id=TiZWJ1 ... frontcover" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
it seems to me that many modern yoga practitioners of the hindu tradition practice them and would undoubtedly disagree with the notion of it being a "lost art". the same goes for all the modern theravada practitioners that practice it.
I said it is a largely lost art, in a sense "to a large extent":

Definition of LARGELY
: in a large manner; especially : to a large extent : mostly, primarily <words largely unknown a decade ago>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/largely" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.

When I read modern authoritative commentaries, for example, on Yoga-Sutra, it is evident for me that the authors don't comprehend the full meaning of the text.

The same applies to the Suttas. The translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign", IMHO, don't know some important practical nuances of the original texts.

Surely some talented people can attain samadhi largely spontaneously, without knowing any texts. However in such a case they have difficulties with teaching it to others. Effective teaching requires precise terminology.

Any tradition is a system of transferring knowledge, - a process of education which involves terminology. Samadhi states exist independently of traditions. With the partial lost of terminology, the art of education is partly lost. And then talented enthusiasts attain samadhi, but can't teach it to public at large.
Ill get back to you in a few weeks. Im going to be studying the info from that link you posted. Ive never heard of a dictionary before! Weird right? Now im going to learn the definitions of all the words. Thanks much!
perkele
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by perkele »

Ive never heard of a dictionary before! Weird right? Now im going to learn the definitions of all the words. Thanks much!
:thinking:
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Polar Bear
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Polar Bear »

Dmytro wrote:\
I don't know such places. You may find useful the book:

The Origin of Buddhist Meditation
By Alexander Wynne
Here's a link to the full text:

http://www.e-reading-lib.org/bookreader ... tation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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marc108
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by marc108 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.
this is an interesting point :jumping:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
alan...
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by alan... »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.
i didn't say that.

this should say:
Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
alan...
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by alan... »

Dmytro wrote:When I read modern authoritative commentaries, for example, on Yoga-Sutra, it is evident for me that the authors don't comprehend the full meaning of the text.

The same applies to the Suttas. The translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign", IMHO, don't know some important practical nuances of the original texts.
you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?

that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

For got to delete

Code: Select all

[quote="alan..."]
. Corrected versrion:
Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan...
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by alan... »

tiltbillings wrote:For got to delete

Code: Select all

[quote="alan..."]
. Corrected versrion:
Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.
thanks
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Assaji
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Assaji »

alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?

that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?

The 'sign' translation was introduced at the times of Thomas Rhys-Davids Pali-English dictionary, which was considered then to be a milestone with much to improve later. However it did not undergo improvement for almost a century, and all the imperfections and errors of this dictionary came to be "canonized" in the Western Buddhism. Now hardly anyone will question the inventions like "The Four Noble Thuths".

Well, if you are looking for authorities with qualifications, I can refer you to Stephen Hodge,

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 770#p39219" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Stephen_Hodge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and to the President of the Pali Text Society, Rupert Gethin, who in agreement with Stephen Hodge connects the term 'nimitta' with 'pratibimba' in his book "Foundations of Buddhism".

Also, as for the dictionaries, I would recommend you the new Pali-English dictionary by Margaret Cone. You may definitely enjoy reading the definition of 'nimitta' from there, which is much improved over the Rhys-Davids'es version.
beeblebrox
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by beeblebrox »

Hi Dmytro, thanks for that link on the "four noble truths" translation issues, and also for pointing out the meaning of nimitta. I think that "sign" can be read as "representation," but probably that's not how some people would read it, so it's important.

:anjali:
daverupa
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

beeblebrox wrote:Hi Dmytro, thanks for that link on the "four noble truths" translation issues, and also for pointing out the meaning of nimitta. I think that "sign" can be read as "representation," but probably that's not how some people would read it, so it's important.

:anjali:
I take nimitta as "theme" in most cases, but it's a lively word.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
alan...
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by alan... »

Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?

that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?




opinion: definition 3 a: "a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
beeblebrox
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by beeblebrox »

Hi Alan, why this quibble?

As far as I could see, Dmytro did take enough care to say "IMHO" in his post... whether you believed that or not.

:anjali:
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Doshin
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Doshin »

alan... wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?

that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?
opinion: definition 3 a: "a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
(also) from your link:
opinion: definition 2a : "belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge"

I think that is a more fitting definition in this case. The list of definitions is not a "all must apply" list, but a "any could apply" list; you must understand the context to know which definition you find most fitting. Well that's just my opinion ;)

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
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