Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

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Cittasanto
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Cittasanto »

Cittasanto wrote:I have certainly experianced unpleasant feelings when being mindful, or bringing mindfulness to a memory that comes up. how is this explained in the Abhidhamma?
Reading some of the responses again, I am now wondering if I had not misunderstood the OP statement that "According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstates associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling."
Is this association of sati with particular feelings not part of the object being looked at and actually part of the experience of sati itself?
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by pilgrim »

Mindfulness is a tool the mind applies to be aware. It is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. What is described as pleasant or unpleasant are feelings (vedana). Obviously, one can be mindful of both pleasant and unpleasant feelings. I thought this much would have been obvious.
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:
Ben wrote: This is the Abhidhamma forum. Robert's definition is consistent with the Abhidhamma.
This appears to me to be in the Classical Theravada forum. As such, aren't non-Abhidhamma answers to the topic fair game?
Yes, so long as there is an attempt to conform to the Mahavihara position on Dhamma matters, as expounded by the ancient commentators.

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Retro. :)
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by robertk »

.
]Just asking. It is good to see that you do not see that Burmese style practice is wrong practice.
Let us be clear I never made any evaluation of the burmese method on this thread. Now if your posts are designed to somehow designate criticism of the burmese techniques improper you might be better asking the administration to put something to this effect in dhamma wheel terms of use.
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
robertk wrote: am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?
Just asking. It is good to see that you do not see that Burmese style practice is wrong practice.
Let us be clear I never made any evaluation of the burmese method on this thread. Now if your posts are designed to somehow designate criticism of the burmese techniques improper you might be better asking the administration to put something to this effect in dhamma wheel terms of use.
Criticism of the Burmese vipassana methods is fair topic. As for what you have said above, I was curious as to whether or not it would apply to the Burmese methods, even if you have not overtly stated anything about them one way or another.
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by robertk »

Cittasanto wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I have certainly experianced unpleasant feelings when being mindful, or bringing mindfulness to a memory that comes up. how is this explained in the Abhidhamma?
Reading some of the responses again, I am now wondering if I had not misunderstood the OP statement that "According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstates associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling."
Is this association of sati with particular feelings not part of the object being looked at and actually part of the experience of sati itself?
All cittas arise with associated cetasikas such as vedana, feeling. In any kusala mindstate there must be as one of the cetasikas sati. The feeling that also arises at the same time is either pleasant or neutral, never unpleasamt.
Can sati be aware of unpleasant feeling?
Yes of course. But at the moment of such awareness the unpleasnt feeling has just fallen away. This can atill be considered as awateness of the prsent momnt as it is all happenong very fast
Sorry for all my typos. I am using a mobile phone
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Ben »

kirk5a wrote:
Ben wrote: This is the Abhidhamma forum. Robert's definition is consistent with the Abhidhamma.
This appears to me to be in the Classical Theravada forum. As such, aren't non-Abhidhamma answers to the topic fair game?
Oops, I beg your pardon, you are right - it is the Classical Theravada forum. Having said that, Robert's answer is consistent with Classical (Mahavihara) Theravada.
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by robertk »

Here are listed the various types of kusala citta (all of which have sati as an accompanying cetasika)


http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidha ... bhi-19.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the Abhidhamma we learn that there are eight types of maha-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness. Why isn't there only one type? The reason is that each type has its own conditions through which it arises. If we know about these different types and if we can be aware of them when their characteristics present themselves, it will help us not to take them for self. Four types of maha-kusala cittas arise with somanassa (pleasant feeling) and four types arise with upekkha (indifferent feeling). We would like to have kusala cittas with somanassa, because we cling to somanassa. However, one cannot force somanassa to arise. Sometimes we perform dana with somanassa, sometimes with upekkha. It depends on conditions whether somanassa or whether upekkha arises with the maha-kusala citta. Four types are accompanied by wisdom : four types are not accompanied by wisdom. We may, for example, help others without panna or with panna. When we realize that helping is kusala, or when we are aware of the nama or rupa appearing at that moment, there is panna arising with the maha-kusala citta. Four types are asankharika (unprompted, spontaneous, not induced by someone else or by one's own consideration) and four types are sasankharika (prompted, by someone else or by self-inducement) The eight types of maha-kusala cittas are the following: .


1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, unprompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttum, asankharikam ekam)

2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, prompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, prompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, unprompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, prompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, sasankhaikam ekam)
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Spiny Norman »

robertk wrote: But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
But if we don't pay attention to our experience, how can sati and panna develop?
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Spiny Norman »

robertk wrote:Here are listed the various types of kusala citta (all of which have sati as an accompanying cetasika)
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidha ... bhi-19.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I couldn't see any mention of sati. Is sati discussed or defined in the Abidhamma?
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by beeblebrox »

Digity wrote:My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?
If we view the boredom as dukkha, then it's also part of our practice to view its cause, then its cessation, and also build our right mindfulness with that kind of knowledge (or panna). All of this is the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th noble truth.

While keeping the above in mind... if we noticed that boredom is arising, and we knew its cause, then why would we even allow it to continue?

If we had the right mindfulness, built on the right panna (i.e., we know that it isn't just merely by stopping brushing that we will make this boredom go away) then all of it will fall away, immediately. That seems to be my experience.

That is why Robert K. said the following:
robertk wrote: In any kusala mindstate there must be as one of the cetasikas sati. The feeling that also arises at the same time is either pleasant or neutral, never unpleasant.

Can sati be aware of unpleasant feeling?

Yes of course. But at the moment of such awareness the unpleasant feeling has just fallen away. This can still be considered as awareness of the present moment as it is all happening very fast.
Also, from the Satipatthana Sutta:
This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the four establishments of mindfulness . . .
:anjali:
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Cittasanto »

robertk wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I have certainly experianced unpleasant feelings when being mindful, or bringing mindfulness to a memory that comes up. how is this explained in the Abhidhamma?
Reading some of the responses again, I am now wondering if I had not misunderstood the OP statement that "According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstates associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling."
Is this association of sati with particular feelings not part of the object being looked at and actually part of the experience of sati itself?
All cittas arise with associated cetasikas such as vedana, feeling. In any kusala mindstate there must be as one of the cetasikas sati. The feeling that also arises at the same time is either pleasant or neutral, never unpleasamt.
Can sati be aware of unpleasant feeling?
Yes of course. But at the moment of such awareness the unpleasnt feeling has just fallen away. This can atill be considered as awateness of the prsent momnt as it is all happenong very fast
Sorry for all my typos. I am using a mobile phone
no problem about the typo's, I am actually quite enjoying reading about me, I have tried reading the first sentence three times without a self implant.
but if I am underatanding this correctly this happends in one or two mind moments?
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by robertk »

All mind states arise momentarily and fall away immediately. It is like a new being born and dying again and again, even in the space of a second.
But they do arise in processes and each process is conditioned by previous mind states. Thus this continuity is one of the reasons for the illusion of a lasting being.
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Spiny Norman »

robertk wrote:All mind states arise momentarily and fall away immediately. It is like a new being born and dying again and again, even in the space of a second.
But they do arise in processes and each process is conditioned by previous mind states. Thus this continuity is one of the reasons for the illusion of a lasting being.
OK, but I'm still not clear how sati is defined in the Abidhamma, or why sati and dosa cannot be present at the same time.
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by robertk »

porpoise wrote:
robertk wrote:All mind states arise momentarily and fall away immediately. It is like a new being born and dying again and again, even in the space of a second.
But they do arise in processes and each process is conditioned by previous mind states. Thus this continuity is one of the reasons for the illusion of a lasting being.
OK, but I'm still not clear how sati is defined in the Abidhamma, or why sati and dosa cannot be present at the same time.
Why can't dosa arise at the same time as sati?
Can we hate and love at the same instant? They can alternate but not arise together.
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