Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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robertk
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by robertk »

porpoise wrote:
robertk wrote:In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation
Interesting. So does this mean that sati and dosa cannot be present at the same time? And does it mean that if one were able to maintain sati continuously, then dosa could not re-ocurr?
Yes that is correct.
The only time when sati is continuously present for longer periods of time is during absorption in actual Jhana where the object is one of the 40 objects for Samantha. At this time there are no sense door objects there are only the uninterrupted series of Jhana cittas: hence no sound, no bodily feeling etc. that is why before the Buddha came the wise ascetics realized the danger of the sense objects, which almost invariably condition lobes or dosa of some degree, and saw Jhana as an escape. It was temporary but the best they could do.

During the development of vipassana there are processes of vitthi cittas which arise with sati and panna ( wisdom) and take actual realities as object. But this is only for very brief periods although it may become more frequent if wisdom is growing.
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kirk5a
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by kirk5a »

For those of us trying to understand the view of sati being presented here, it would be helpful to have specific reference(s) in support, as per this subforum's guidelines.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Cittasanto
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

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I have certainly experianced unpleasant feelings when being mindful, or bringing mindfulness to a memory that comes up. how is this explained in the Abhidhamma?
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Ben
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Ben »

FatDaddy wrote:
Ben wrote:
robertk wrote:According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling
Yes, I think that is quite correct.
kind regards,

Ben
I don't understand this. Sati can have an unpleasant sensation or state as an object. Is it refereing to sati with samatha?
It is the object itself which is either an unpleasant sensation or associated with the unpleasant sensation - not sati.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Ben
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Ben »

kirk5a wrote:For those of us trying to understand the view of sati being presented here, it would be helpful to have specific reference(s) in support, as per this subforum's guidelines.
Yes, I agree and apologize.
I will dig out my copy of Abhidhammattha Sanghaha (Bhikkhu Bodhi edition) a little later today.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
beeblebrox
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by beeblebrox »

What Robert K. said seems to match my experience that when an unpleasant feeling arises (and then persists for a while) then that would mean the mindfulness had either lapsed, or wasn't correct, i.e., samma-sati. Of course my own experiences aren't that deep, so keep that in mind.

:anjali:
Digity
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Digity »

My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?
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robertk
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by robertk »

Digity wrote:My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?
Good question and the reason I started this topic. Mindfulness by definition can never be boring or have even the slightest taste of unpleasantness . But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

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tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"
I am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Digity »

robertk wrote:
Digity wrote:My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?
Good question and the reason I started this topic. Mindfulness by definition can never be boring or have even the slightest taste of unpleasantness . But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
That's the first time I've heard mindfulness defined in such a way. My understanding is that mindfulness is keeping something in mind. I've never heard anything about that experience having to be pleasant and if it isn't it's not mindfulness. Not offense, but I think your definition may be wrong. Although, I'd like to hear other people's opinions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can you point out where it says it must be pleasant or its not mindfulness?
Last edited by Digity on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ben
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Ben »

Digity wrote:
robertk wrote:
Digity wrote:My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?
Good question and the reason I started this topic. Mindfulness by definition can never be boring or have even the slightest taste of unpleasantness . But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
That's the first time I've heard mindfulness defined in such a way. My understanding is that mindfulness is keeping something in mind. I've never heard anything about that experience having to be pleasant and if it isn't it's not mindfulness. Not offense, but I think your definition may be wrong. Although, I'd like to hear other people's opinions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can you point out where it says it must be pleasant or its not mindfulness?
This is the Abhidhamma forum. Robert's definition is consistent with the Abhidhamma.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Digity
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by Digity »

If your definition is based on the Abhidhamma can you show me where? I'm not too familiar with it. I just read the Buddha's basic teachings. Anyway, what your saying about mindfulness seems off to me. I think the flavour of mindfulness changes as it develops. I don't think it necessarily starts off as pleasant, but I can see if one develops concentration and the mind quiets down then it could be more and more pleasant, but obviously that's not going to happen for someone who is just starting off...and then they're suppose to thing they're on the wrong path? Seems odd.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"
I am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?
Just asking. It is good to see that you do not see that Burmese style practice is wrong practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Post by kirk5a »

Ben wrote: This is the Abhidhamma forum. Robert's definition is consistent with the Abhidhamma.
This appears to me to be in the Classical Theravada forum. As such, aren't non-Abhidhamma answers to the topic fair game?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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