help me understand how consciousness is not self

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
pulga
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by pulga »

alan... wrote:
nowhere, except on the cushion, there i see it as a single thing, hence my continued confusion.

i sit and can view all six consciousnesses as one panoramic viewpoint. i can feel, see, hear, think, smell and taste all at once which is an illusion of a constant self. so the problem continues. at first your idea of seeing six consciousnesses worked quite well, until i sat down...

i can still see it as impermanent easily, and i see it as not self intellectually but i can't see it deeply.
Friend, (there are) these five faculties each with a separate field, a separate resort, no one of them exploiting for its being another's field and resort, that is to say, the eye faculty, ear faculty, nose faculty, tongue faculty, and body faculty. Now these five faculties each with a separate field, a separate resort, no one of them exploiting for its being another's field and resort, have mind as their homing-place, mind exploits for its being their fields and resorts. (Mahavedalla Sutta ~ Ven. Ñanamoli's translation)
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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equilibrium
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by equilibrium »

alan... wrote:
equilibrium wrote:
alan... wrote:.....i can feel, see, hear, think, smell and taste all at once which is an illusion of a constant self......
Between these, there is one which is more important than them all, do you know which one and why?
obviously i don't so what is it?
emmmm.....not the answer expected, anyway.
You really need this one if one is to fully understand not-self.....do you see it now?

You are aware the answer cannot be told directly for reasons.....as it takes realization, this CANNOT be transferred from person to person.....agree?
Need a bit of awareness here!
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

equilibrium wrote: emmmm.....not the answer expected, anyway.
You really need this one if one is to fully understand not-self.....do you see it now?

You are aware the answer cannot be told directly for reasons.....as it takes realization, this CANNOT be transferred from person to person.....agree?
Need a bit of awareness here!
the buddha gave similes at least man, give me a break. what are you getting at?
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Cittasanto
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote:right so because consciousness is dependent on many other factors it is not antta, right? how do i contemplate and observe this? especially on the cushion?
Atta (self), not antta.
It is a reflective point to keep in mind when you see the grasping at a sense of self. When you believe something is so tell your mind it is lying to you.
Reflect on the Anatta-lakkha Sutta here.
man for some reason talking to you i always have annoying typos, sorry! i meant "right so because consciousness is dependent on many other factors it is anatta, right?" that typo totally changed my meaning lol!

i really am not as ignorant as that made me sound. anatta is not self atta is self. "an" is a negative connotation. this is the pali equivalent of atman and anatman in sanskrit and so on.

thanks for the sutta link! i will look at it.
I had missed the "not" underlined so... but I find your achnoledgement of this typo funny as my user name used to be Manapa.
do you use a spell checker? I use one as my spelling can be quite bad. you can download them for browsers.

but think of it as the Karaniya metta sutta says of the practice of metta "Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down, so long as one is free from drowsiness, this should be recollected"
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote: I had missed the "not" underlined so... but I find your achnoledgement of this typo funny as my user name used to be Manapa.
do you use a spell checker? I use one as my spelling can be quite bad. you can download them for browsers.

but think of it as the Karaniya metta sutta says of the practice of metta "Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down, so long as one is free from drowsiness, this should be recollected"
i use spell check but with all the pali words tons of stuff is underlined so i sometimes accidentally ignore stuff as i'm used to ignoring all the pali words with red lines underneath.

what about your previous user name?
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Cittasanto
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: I had missed the "not" underlined so... but I find your achnoledgement of this typo funny as my user name used to be Manapa.
do you use a spell checker? I use one as my spelling can be quite bad. you can download them for browsers.

but think of it as the Karaniya metta sutta says of the practice of metta "Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down, so long as one is free from drowsiness, this should be recollected"
i use spell check but with all the pali words tons of stuff is underlined so i sometimes accidentally ignore stuff as i'm used to ignoring all the pali words with red lines underneath.

what about your previous user name?
I used to go by Manapa, so when you said man, I found it funny
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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manas
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by manas »

Hi alan, I can't easily quote with this phone...so... I read that you (believe that) you can have visual impressions, sounds, thought-impressions, all at once. I think you should investigate this more thoroughly. Because as I understand it, that's how things can appear, but not how they really are. You can't actually see and hear at the same instant. What happens is that the mind moves so quickly from one thing to another, such that, as in a movie, the many frames are perceived as one, continuous experience.

But don't think you are alone, I'm similarly engaged in trying to see through this identification with conscious awareness as 'the one who knows' -with the underlying assumption of this being our 'authentic, real self' there, u know what I mean? But maybe instead of construing 'knower', we should just cultivate 'knowing'...

This work might require patient, consistent application of the entire eightfold path for some time.

Keep treading...
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
SarathW
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by SarathW »

Hi Alan
This is my approach:
A)Consciousness is not a one fixed entity, stored in anywhere. It arises due to reasons.
B)Consciousness will not arise without grassier matter (Rupa) or subtle matter (Nama)
c)When Citta (consciousness) arise with it other 52 Cetasikas arise.
d)when conditions not there there is no consciousness.
Please read attached for more info:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

thanks all. i sat in jhana for a bit and then after coming out i contemplated this and broke through fairly well. this has happened before and i backslid so let's hope i can maintain this time!

largely the backsliding was due to too much focus on meditation and mindfulness without enough observation of the anicca, dukkha and anatta of mind itself.
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