jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:I'm not sure if you're intentionally trying to minimize Jhana by dismissing it as "nifty," but if you are, then I'd be interested to know why.
You keep accusing me of trying to minimize the jhanas, but that is not the case. Quite simply, the jhanas are tools that can be well handled or mishandled.
I apologize if I sound accusatory, but you have to admit that "You can do all sorts of nifty things and have all sorts of nifty experiences" doesn't exactly reek of the respect the Buddha's preferred meditation might command. But I digress, back to the topic at hand.
I'd rather not reek of anything, if you don't mind, and even if you do, I'd still rather not reek.

One can be so utterly deferential, so rigidly respectful, of something and in the process miss something of interest or importance. And as for "the Buddha's preferred meditation," as far as I am concerned the Buddha's preferred practice is to pay attention. Everything else flows from that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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manas
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by manas »

Hi alan,

the following sutta, as far as instructions go, might be a bit beyond where you are at presently. (I reckon it's beyond me, for now). But I offer it to inspire you, that jhana *can* be a platform from which one can see the end of dukkha, and how blissful it must be to see that:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
daverupa
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:You might start with the image of the Buddha, and if you are able to produce a radiant vision of the Buddha, you can move on to Vishnu or Zeus, and that sort of thing.
:?:

So... well, let's check the texts:
MN 64 wrote:Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumor, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: 'This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.
One does this in jhana; this is the path, this is the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.

---

I don't think there is pre-Buddhist jhana, because the Buddha did not recall a teacher, he recalled a childhood/young adulthood experience of first jhana, and later developed the other three after taking nourishment near Uruvela. Therefore, there weren't any non-Buddhist wanderers who practiced jhana until the Buddha taught it.

The brahmins and wanderers had many & ancient formless meditations and absorptions in objects; none of this is jhana, and none of it is necessary, but it ends up getting tacked on to the jhana pericope, which leads to confusion, I think.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mr Man
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Mr Man »

daverupa wrote:
I don't think there is pre-Buddhist jhana,.
To me this is a bit of a quandary. I find it hard to comprehend that others were not practicing meditation which was equivalent to Jhana. I can only think that the difference was in how the experience was interpreted or perceived (4 noble truths) or attitude (not self/non attachment).
daverupa
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

Mr Man wrote:
daverupa wrote:
I don't think there is pre-Buddhist jhana,.
To me this is a bit of a quandary. I find it hard to comprehend that others were not practicing meditation which was equivalent to Jhana. I can only think that the difference was in how the experience was interpreted or perceived (4 noble truths) or attitude (not self/non attachment).
The problem, as I see it, is resolved with the rose-apple situation. The later provenance of the formless attainments, and their absence from the jhana pericope in most places, testify to a certain development over time. I see an aggrandizement by the larger bhavana milieu, perhaps setting in early with (mostly spurious) warnings about the pleasure of jhana.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mr Man
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Mr Man »

Dave but do you think the rose-apple situation was unique to the young prince and not an experience that many people would have shared? The significance/usefulness was only realized in retrospect.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

Mr Man wrote:Dave but do you think the rose-apple situation was unique to the young prince and not an experience that many people would have shared? The significance/usefulness was only realized in retrospect.
The situation can, at best, encompass the chance that first jhana is something others might have experienced. Now, that this is the only jhana with piti-sukha born of seclusion, not samadhi, and with vitakka-vicara, not without, lends support to the idea that first jhana stands apart in this way.

But the four jhanas together are sammasamadhi, which isn't to be found outside the Dhamma.

---

tilt, I'm unsure how it is that DN 1 is supporting the shamanism you were talking about.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You might start with the image of the Buddha, and if you are able to produce a radiant vision of the Buddha, you can move on to Vishnu or Zeus, and that sort of thing.
:?:

So... well, let's check the texts:
Actually, let us check out this text:
95. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because, good sir, sense pleasures are impermanent, suffering, subject to change, and through their change and transformation there arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. But when the self, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by initial and sustained thought and contains the rapture and happiness born of seclusion — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

96. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because that jhāna contains initial and sustained thought; therefore it is declared to be gross. But when, with the subsiding of initial and sustained thought, the self enters and abides in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is free from initial and sustained thought, and contains the rapture and happiness born of concentration — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

97. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because of the mental exhilaration connected with rapture that exists there. But when, with the fading away of rapture, one abides in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and still experiencing happiness with the body, enters and abides in the third jhāna, so that the ariyans announce: "He abides happily, in equanimity and mindfulness" — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

98. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because a mental concern, 'Happiness,' exists there. But when, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of previous joy and grief, one enters and abides in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure and pain and contains purification of mindfulness through equanimity — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The brahmins and wanderers had many & ancient formless meditations and absorptions in objects; none of this is jhana, and none of it is necessary, but it ends up getting tacked on to the jhana pericope, which leads to confusion, I think.
The first discourse of the Digha Nikayta is important enough in its content that I rather doubt that the use of the "jhana pericope" was a result of laziness or or a lack of understanding or some other flaw that would allow one to breezily brush aside the implications.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote: tilt, I'm unsure how it is that DN 1 is supporting the shamanism you were talking about.
The point is that the jhanas, by themselves, are not sufficient for awakening, in that they can be easily subverted by one's belief systems and expectations, shaping what one might experience during jhana and after. Given that jhana experience can be very profound, such experience can give one an unshakable confidence that what has been experienced is the TRUTH. The "shamanism" I lightly suggested simply makes the point about how plastic and suggestable jhana experience can be. Within the Buddha's teachings jhana is part of a larger multifaceted context that helps one avoid the serious pitfalls, but even so one still needs to be careful, looking every gift horse in the mouth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alobha
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Alobha »

@ Offtopic:
While I don't agree with tilt's disrespectul approach (It's just what Tilt does, people.), at least the Visuddhi Magga draws a distinction between a Samatha Yanika and a Sukkha Vipassaka: While the Sukkha Vipassaka is a person who only has Vipassana as his/her vehicle and at least reached stream-entry,
the Samatha Yanika is a person who has at least the first jhana as his/her vehicle _besides_ insight/vipassana and, with both insight and jhanas, reached at least stream-entry.
Jhana alone may not be enough, but that does not mean it's useless or a subject that can be neglected, looked down upon or made fun of... As far as understand it, a high level of concentration (such as attained in the jhanas), is a great supporting condition for Insight and thus it's good to develop samadhi.

@ Thread: Concerning jhana in pre-buddhist times. When the Buddha awakened and decided to teach, there were several people he thought might be suitable to understand the Dhamma. Some of them were past teachers of Siddharta Gautama and if I recall correctly, the Buddha thought they would understand because they already achieved one of the higher jhanas. However, most of them died shortly so he couldn't tell them. I think it was something like this.. if you're interested, I'd suggest poking around in that area.
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

Alobha wrote:While I don't agree with tilt's disrespectul approach . . . @Jhana alone may not be enough, but that does not mean it's useless or a subject that can be neglected, looked down upon or made fun of.
If you are suggesting that I am making fun of jhana or that I am suggesting that it is useless or that it is to be looked down upon, that certainly is not the case and I'll accept your apology, which I am sure is immediately forthcoming. Also, lighten up a bit.

But I think we need to be careful when we approach jhana both as a topic of conversation and as an actual practice. It is all too easy to go all starry-eyed, all gaga, over the prospect of it and over the actual experience it. Jhana, which is not unique to the Buddha's teachings, does have potential serious dangers, and not the least of which is the wanting -- the desire -- ever so much of having the jhana experience. Also, given the wide variety opinions about what jhana experience is, the question -- what do you mean by jhana? -- while annoying to some is to the point of any discussion of the subject. And whose opinion, as to what really constitutes what jhana really is, is correct?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

Alobha wrote:the Buddha thought they would understand because they already achieved one of the higher jhanas.
However, that's not why he thought they would easily understand:
MN 26 wrote:"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Alara Kalama is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Alara Kalama suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it.'

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Uddaka Ramaputta is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Uddaka Ramaputta died last night.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Uddaka Ramaputta died last night.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Uddaka Ramaputta suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it.'

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'They were very helpful to me, the group of five monks who attended to me when I was resolute in exertion. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma first?'
They had attained one of two mentioned formless attainments; none of the four jhanas at all.

---

Jhana is wholesome pleasure to be pursued, not to be feared. It is pleasure which is altogether secluded from kamaguna, secluded from akusala dhamma. It's due to this wholesome pleasure that sensual pleasure loses its allure. Starry-eyed gaga-wonder means it's probably some other thing. Jhana is necessary and insufficient, but notice that DN 1 discusses how it's a problem to think in terms of an existing self. The instructions for jhana which I cited earlier work to prevent this mistake.

The formless stuff simply doesn't apply. This was what the Bodhisatta could learn from contemporary teachers; not jhana.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote: Jhana is necessary and insufficient, but notice that DN 1 discusses how it's a problem to think in terms of an existing self. The instructions for jhana which I cited earlier work to prevent this mistake.
And DN 1 makes the point of context within which jhana is practiced, which, again, points to the plasticity of the jhana experience.

As far as "thinking in terms of an existing self," that raises an interesting question, given the nature of the sense of self we have to deal with. It is a bit more just conceptually thinking in terms of a self. Interestingly jhana can suppress that feeling of self, but that is far from insight into the nature of self. The solution to that according to the Buddha seems to be:
". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.
And as we seem to agree, whatever is meant by jhana, it is the context within which it is practiced that is important.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote: Starry-eyed gaga-wonder means it's probably some other thing.
It depends.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
They had attained one of two mentioned formless attainments; none of the four jhanas at all.
Does not one have to attain the first four jhanas before moving on to the second four? Anyway the Buddha attaned what they attained and rejected it as being sufficient.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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