Zazen and the Jhanas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by tiltbillings »

alan... wrote:
he was not departing from Scripture he was departing from traditional zen methods and created his own school, probably without realizing it.
Basically, Dogen was importing a Ch'an school from China where he studied, adding his own commentary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan...
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by alan... »

tiltbillings wrote:
alan... wrote:
he was not departing from Scripture he was departing from traditional zen methods and created his own school, probably without realizing it.
Basically, Dogen was importing a Ch'an school from China where he studied, adding his own commentary.
and now the soto school is totally dependent on dogens writings. this is exactly what i was saying. the deliberate non dependence on sutra can lead anywhere. in the case of soto it lead to a completely new school dependent on dogens texts, in other schools it has lead in different directions. in theravada it always comes back to the pali canon.

even the few mahayana sutras that are usually circulated around zen schools are fairly ambiguous and easily reinterpreted to suit whatever a school wants to do. although even if one took the entire mahayana canon as a whole it would allow one to do pretty much anything as there is a huge amount of variation and conflicting ideas from one sutra to another. for example just grabbing onto the skillful means thing from the lotus sutra can get one out of just about any examination of ones methods even though said methods may conflict with a rule in another sutra. some say one must reach nirvana through self effort, others that one can just pray to amitabha and be reborn in his realm and reach it there, and so on. whereas theravada is held totally accountable with regards to the canon which is very specific and largely consistent, especially where morality and personal conduct on what is and is not appropriate is concerned. just look at the battles between vipassana only schools and traditional schools that teach jhana. just web search "nibbana without jhana" or "is jhana necessary" and you get a ton of pages where this is being debated, all with scriptural references. even though these schools are somewhat different they all rely on and are careful to stay within the limits of the canon. one may say no jhana, another jhana is essential, both are supported in the suttas in varying degrees. however one could not go the way some zen schools have and say meditation is not necessary or that scriptural learning is useless as these are in direct opposition to what is in the canon. theravada can only justify things that have support from the suttas or risk being discredited, ignored or will simply become an offshoot school that is unincorporated and not considered theravada.

but if you read a large number of different zen schools they are all over the place depending on who is doing the teaching and they answer to no sutras to justify their views. i'm not saying this is a bad thing. i'm pretty darn sure zen works if you find the right teacher or right teacher's method. i'm just noting a contrast and backing it up with examples. the idea is that theravada is preserved perfectly in the pali canon and zen is only preserved through direct transmission and cannot be learned any other way. so each teacher or teachers school is independent and one must have complete faith in a certain recension and hope it isn't the wrong one. zen is not even one thing, calling it zen is really misleading. it would be more appropriate to only speak of soto, rinzai, yunmen, and so on and so on since they are so different one could even go so far as to only talk about each individual master! so we only talk about dogen and forget everything else or only talk about yunmen or whatever. if we do that then we can have a consistent debate about that one teachers ideas. when we just talk about "zen" everyone is right and wrong at the same time since it is so loosely defined due to each master and school having their own unique definition it's absurd.
Last edited by alan... on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by tiltbillings »

alan... wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
alan... wrote:
he was not departing from Scripture he was departing from traditional zen methods and created his own school, probably without realizing it.
Basically, Dogen was importing a Ch'an school from China where he studied, adding his own commentary.
and now the soto school is totally dependent on dogens writings. this is exactly what i was saying. the deliberate non dependence on sutra can lead anywhere. in the case of soto it lead to a completely new school dependent on dogens texts, in other schools it has lead in different directions. in theravada it always comes back to the pali canon.
You are still way over stating the Zen business, but quite frankly it is not worth the time to argue. As for the Theravada, it may come back to to the Pali Canon, but that still does not mean that thereare not going to be rather radical divegencies such a Buddhadasa's interpretations or the Thai forest tradition's citta, ot Vimalaramsi's finding finding the true practice of the Buddha in the suttas while all others flounder about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan...
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by alan... »

tiltbillings wrote:You are still way over stating the Zen business
this is why it sounds like i'm overstating it: zen is not even one thing, calling it zen is really misleading. it would be more appropriate to only speak of soto, rinzai, yunmen, and so on and so on since they are so different one could even go so far as to only talk about each individual master! so we only talk about dogen and forget everything else or only talk about yunmen or whatever. if we do that then we can have a consistent debate about that one teachers ideas. when we just talk about "zen" everyone is right and wrong at the same time since it is so loosely defined due to each master and school having their own unique definition it's absurd.

you probably have an idea in your mind about what zen is and it is probably largely colored by one or two similar schools so what i'm saying sounds outlandish when in fact there are so many schools and so much variation that talking about them as one thing inevitably leads to overstatement of zen such as i have allegedly done above. it is an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot and it keeps going. there are very few rules or boundaries as to what can be a zen school or how to define it. most would even say it cannot be defined.

but if this is true:
tiltbillings wrote: but quite frankly it is not worth the time to argue.
what have we been doing this whole time? why are you talking about it at all? what is worth the time to argue?

is it worth talking about:
tiltbillings wrote: Buddhadasa's interpretations or the Thai forest tradition's citta, ot Vimalaramsi's finding finding the true practice of the Buddha in the suttas while all others flounder about.
because i'm quite interested, i haven't heard about these things.
Last edited by alan... on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dan74
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by Dan74 »

Alan, if you say there is less orthodoxy in Zen than in Theravada, then I will say - very likely so. And yet having heard and read Zen teachers from Chan, Japanese Zen and Seon, I found a remarkable commonality. The differences are more to do with their actual penetration of the Great Matter - their ability, than the actual divergence of traditions, if any. Yes, methods may differ somewhat, emphasis may differ somewhat, but the flavour is still the same. Different restaurants, same cuisine.
_/|\_
alan...
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by alan... »

Dan74 wrote:Alan, if you say there is less orthodoxy in Zen than in Theravada, then I will say - very likely so. And yet having heard and read Zen teachers from Chan, Japanese Zen and Seon, I found a remarkable commonality. The differences are more to do with their actual penetration of the Great Matter - their ability, than the actual divergence of traditions, if any. Yes, methods may differ somewhat, emphasis may differ somewhat, but the flavour is still the same. Different restaurants, same cuisine.
a lot of the masters would disagree with you as they disagreed with each other. many schools saw themselves as superior, holding the true lineage or true methods and saw others as inferior at best or at worst as counterfeits or frauds. the same surely is true in theravada but again, theravada masters meet up at the canon and zen masters meet no where unless they choose to or happen to by coincidence.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by tiltbillings »

alan... wrote:
you probably have an idea in your mind about what zen is and it is probably largely colored by one or two similar schools so what i'm saying sounds outlandish when in fact there are so many schools and so much variation that talking about them as one thing inevitably leads to overstatement of zen such as i have allegedly done above.
You have not a clue as to what is in my mind or what I do and do not know about the history of Ch'an/Zen.
why are you talking about it at all?
After this, I am not talking about it any further.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan...
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by alan... »

tiltbillings wrote:
alan... wrote:
you probably have an idea in your mind about what zen is and it is probably largely colored by one or two similar schools so what i'm saying sounds outlandish when in fact there are so many schools and so much variation that talking about them as one thing inevitably leads to overstatement of zen such as i have allegedly done above.
You have not a clue as to what is in my mind or what I do and do not know about the history of Ch'an/Zen.
why are you talking about it at all?
After this, I am not talking about it any further.
i'm sorry. i felt like what you said
tiltbillings wrote: but quite frankly it is not worth the time to argue.
was a little harsh in that it was implying i wasn't worth talking to anymore. all i was asking is if you are going to blatantly say i'm not worth talking to then why are you talking about it at all?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zazen and the Jhanas

Post by tiltbillings »

alan... wrote:
was a little harsh in that it was implying i wasn't worth talking to anymore. all i was asking is if you are going to blatantly say i'm not worth talking to then why are you talking about it at all?
You need to not take things so personally. It has nothing to do with you personally. It is, rather, I do not find this topic interesting enough to argue about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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