1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
nibbuti
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by nibbuti »

1stjhanafactors wrote:The sad and confusing thing about all this is that the majority of the most knowledgeable meditation teachers do not address these contradictions. I don't know if they are aware of the problem and they don't dare to say anything or if in spite of their high level of realization and nobility they are just blind to these matters as they take the tradition dogmatically.
Contradictions do not exist. One-pointedness - cittaṃ ekaggaṃ - is a factor of every jhana. Cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ is not cittaṃ ekaggaṃ. Vitakka & vicara are not active verbal thought. Vitakka & vicara are movements of the mind to the meditation object.

Imagine a wheel bound to an axle. Bound to the axle is one-pointedness. Moving around the axle is vitakka & vicara. The wheel cannot leave the axle but the wheel can continue to move around the axle.

When the mind reaches the 1st jhana, it will then know, without doubt. When the mind has doubt, this is a hindrance. When there is the hindrance of doubt, there can be no 1st jhana.

The scriptures:
'Thinking imbued with harmlessness has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.'

So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.

Āraddhaṃ kho pana me vīriyaṃ ahosi asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ.

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And how many factors does the first jhana have?"

"The first jhana has five factors. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the five-factored first jhana, there occurs directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that the first jhana has five factors."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
Spiny Norman
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by Spiny Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:
porpoise wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:It is clearly saying that piti and sukha, the defining characteristics of the first Jhana, are the direct antidotes to sensuality. I'm not arguing that Jhana magically removes sensuality just by being there, but that Jhana brings about levels of pleasure and rapture capable of ending sensual desire in ways that pure insight cannot.
That's how it looks to me - jhana as an antidote to the hindrances, effectively replacing unwholesome states of mind with wholesome ones. I've been looking recently at the 7 factors of enlightenment, and I can see some parallels there, ie developing the 7 factors instead of "developing" the 5 hindrances ( see SN 46 ).
Yes, but did you read the whole exchsange? Jhana alone will not remove kama.
I'm not arguing for jhana and against insight, I think both are necessary. I think the debate is about which comes first, and on that point I think the suttas support both approaches - for me it makes most sense practically speaking to calm the mind first as a basis for seeing more clearly.
I do think the jhanas are necessary, not least because Right Concentration ( samma samadhi ) is defined in terms of the jhanas.
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by Spiny Norman »

nibbuti wrote: When there is the hindrance of doubt, there can be no 1st jhana.
And vice versa? It seems to me that the absorptions and hindrances are mutually exclusive - you could say that the absorptions displace the hindrances.
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reflection
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by reflection »

Let's try to describe the taste of a banana in theory..
We can't.

If we can't even describe something that common, we can simply forget trying to get jhana in some theoretical format.
When you are hungry you don't care about the theory of how a banana tastes, you just eat.
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by Sekha »

tiltbillings wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:
porpoise wrote:Interesting thread. I was reflecting again on jhana again recently, and I have a question:
What basically is the purpose of jhana? Is it getting rid of the 5 hindrances?
Jhana, when practiced diligently, removes sensual craving, subdues hindrances, and allows for deeper and more penetrating insight.
Jhana by itself removes sensual cravings?
I would say jhana appears as a result of temporary suppression of sensual craving, and it also does help to remove the remaining at-that-time-non-arisen sensual craving.
Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kam-attham-anubhoti? Cittaṃ bhāvīyati. Cittaṃ bhāvitaṃ kam-attham-anubhoti? Yo rāgo so pahīyati.
By developping Samatha, bhikkhus, what purpose is served? Citta is developped. By developping citta, bhikkhus, what purpose is served? Whatever rāga there is is abandoned.
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 2-032.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think it is arguable that samatha and citta bhavana (equivalent for citta-sikkha) both refer to jhana practice.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by Zom »

Two useful points to keep in mind:

1). MN 64 passage (why jhana is needed):

There is a path, Ananda, a way to the abandoning of the
five lower fetters; that anyone, without coming to that path, to
that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters -
this is not possible. Just as when there is a great tree standing
possessed of heartwood, it is not possible that anyone shall cut
out its heartwood without cutting through its bark and sapwood,
so too, there is a path.. .this is not possible.
...
"And what, Ananda, is the path, the way to the abandoning
of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from objects of
attachment, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with
the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded
from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a
bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is
accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture
and pleasure born of seclusion.

"Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception,
formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent,
as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a
calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as
not self. He turns his mind away from those states and
directs it towards the deathless element thus: "This is the peaceful,
this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the
relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving,
dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.' Standing upon that, he
attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the
destruction of the taints, then because of that desire for the
Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, with the destruction of
the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously
[in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbana
without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the
way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.


2). DN 2 passage (how to be sure you are in it):

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

:reading: :buddha2: 8-)
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