1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

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tiltbillings
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by tiltbillings »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Jhana by itself removes sensual cravings?
Yes.

From the Cula-dukkhakkhandha Sutta:

"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, and greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture and pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, and greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture and pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality."
This text is not saying that jhana by itself, jhana alone, will remove sensuality.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:This text is not saying that jhana by itself, jhana alone, will remove sensuality.
It is clearly saying that piti and sukha, the defining characteristics of the first Jhana, are the direct antidotes to sensuality. I'm not arguing that Jhana magically removes sensuality just by being there, but that Jhana brings about levels of pleasure and rapture capable of ending sensual desire in ways that pure insight cannot.

See Thanissaro's note on the passage, "The rapture and pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, is a factor of the first or second jhana. 'Something more peaceful than that' would be any attainments higher than the second jhana." This is the obvious conclusion; one would have to be intentionally searching for an alternative interpretation in order to find a meaning here that is not supportive of Jhana as a recommended antidote to sensuality.
Last edited by LonesomeYogurt on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
daverupa
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by daverupa »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:This text is not saying that jhana by itself, jhana alone, will remove sensuality.
It is clearly saying that piti and sukha, the defining characteristics of the first Jhana, are the direct antidotes to sensuality. I'm not arguing that Jhana magically removes sensuality just by being there, but that Jhana brings about levels of pleasure and rapture capable of ending sensual desire in ways that pure insight cannot.

What is your alternative interpretation?
Well, piti-sukha born of seclusion, which isn't quite the same. Part of that is seclusion from the kamaguna, e.g. the hindrance of sensual desire is absent, and addressing such instances of sensuality has to happen before jhana is even approached.
Last edited by daverupa on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

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tiltbillings
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by tiltbillings »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:This text is not saying that jhana by itself, jhana alone, will remove sensuality.
It is clearly saying that piti and sukha, the defining characteristics of the first Jhana, are the direct antidotes to sensuality. I'm not arguing that Jhana magically removes sensuality just by being there, but that Jhana brings about levels of pleasure and rapture capable of ending sensual desire in ways that pure insight cannot.

What is your alternative interpretation?
What jhana, in and of itself, can do is suppress sensuality -- kama -- for a period of time that can last for awhile after the experience of jhana, but don't forget kama is an asava, which means it is not until there is the attainment of non-returning is sensuality, sense desire, actually removed. Jhana can suppress a lot of stuff, leading one to thinking that one has attained far more than what is justified.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:Jhana can suppress a lot of stuff, leading one to thinking that one has attained far more than what is justified.
This is perhaps not textually justifiable, but does repeated exposure to Jhana (temporary suppression of sensuality) gradually reduce the arising of sensuality, or is there a 'sensuality cliff' upon attainment of non-returning?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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tiltbillings
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Jhana can suppress a lot of stuff, leading one to thinking that one has attained far more than what is justified.
This is perhaps not textually justifiable,
That does not mean it is not true, though the Buddha certainly did point to any number of wrong views as a result of jhana.


but does repeated exposure to Jhana (temporary suppression of sensuality) gradually reduce the arising of sensuality,
Depends upon what else one is doing as part of one's practice.
or is there a 'sensuality cliff' upon attainment of non-returning?
Damdifino what you mean by that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:What jhana, in and of itself, can do is suppress sensuality -- kama -- for a period of time that can last for awhile after the experience of jhana, but don't forget kama is an asava, which means it is not until there is the attainment of non-returning is sensuality, sense desire, actually removed. Jhana can suppress a lot of stuff, leading one to thinking that one has attained far more than what is justified.
I'm sorry, but that is not what the text is saying. It is quite clear that the Buddha found pure (or "dry" or "bare") insight lacking when it comes to preventing, by itself, sensual desire. Both the wisdom of insight and the joy of tranquility are required to break the bonds of sensuality. I'm not arguing that Jhana is capable of doing this without a base of strong insight backing it up; if you look at the structure of that text, it's clear that the Buddha is encouraging insight as well as Jhana pleasures, not one or the other. But the fact stands that the Buddha encouraged Jhana as a way to eliminate sensual desires that insight alone cannot tackle.

I'm honestly curious why you are taking such a hard anti-Jhana standpoint here. You are obviously well-versed in the suttas, can you really deny that the Buddha encouraged the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Jhanas over and over and over again, calling them "the meditation he approved of," "the practice that inclines one towards Nibbana," etc.? It seems to me that you are harping repeatedly on the "dangers" and "risks" and "drawbacks" of Jhana, while I have yet to hear you say one positive thing about that which the Buddha praised so highly!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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tiltbillings
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by tiltbillings »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What jhana, in and of itself, can do is suppress sensuality -- kama -- for a period of time that can last for awhile after the experience of jhana, but don't forget kama is an asava, which means it is not until there is the attainment of non-returning is sensuality, sense desire, actually removed. Jhana can suppress a lot of stuff, leading one to thinking that one has attained far more than what is justified.
I'm sorry, but that is not what the text is saying. It is quite clear that the Buddha found pure (or "dry" or "bare") insight lacking when it comes to preventing, by itself, sensual desire. Both the wisdom of insight and the joy of tranquility are required to break the bonds of sensuality. I'm not arguing that Jhana is capable of doing this without a base of strong insight backing it up; if you look at the structure of that text, it's clear that the Buddha is encouraging insight as well as Jhana pleasures, not one or the other. But the fact stands that the Buddha encouraged Jhana as a way to eliminate sensual desires that insight alone cannot tackle.
I think you are over-reading the text, but I shrug my shoulders. I don't care to get into a battle over it.
I'm honestly curious why you are taking such a hard anti-Jhana standpoint here. You are obviously well-versed in the suttas, can you really deny that the Buddha encouraged the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Jhanas over and over and over again, calling them "the meditation he approved of," "the practice that inclines one towards Nibbana," etc.? It seems to me that you are harping repeatedly on the "dangers" and "risks" and "drawbacks" of Jhana, while I have yet to hear you say one positive thing about that which the Buddha praised so highly!
You make my point here about over-reading things. I am not taking an anti-jhana position. My point was that your initial statement about jhana and sensuality, without considerable qualification, was at face value wrong.

As for -- It is quite clear that the Buddha found pure (or "dry" or "bare") insight lacking when it comes to preventing, by itself, sensual desire -- there is no justification forthis statement. Do you know why?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:As for -- It is quite clear that the Buddha found pure (or "dry" or "bare") insight lacking when it comes to preventing, by itself, sensual desire -- there is no justification forthis statement. Do you know why?
"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, and greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture and pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality."

There are other verses like this that say the exact same thing; pure "dry" insight without Jhana is not sufficient for eradicating sensual desire. But I'd be interested in knowing why there is no justification for that.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by tiltbillings »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As for -- It is quite clear that the Buddha found pure (or "dry" or "bare") insight lacking when it comes to preventing, by itself, sensual desire -- there is no justification forthis statement. Do you know why?
"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, and greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture and pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality."

There are other verses like this that say the exact same thing; pure "dry" insight without Jhana is not sufficient for eradicating sensual desire. But I'd be interested in knowing why there is no justification for that.
Two things are going on in this passage, which makes my point. Jhana by itself is not going to bring an end to kama. There needs to be discernment. Now, you are the one who has brought into this discussion "dry-insight." I did not mention it, nor did I allude to it and it really has not a thing to do with what I said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:Two things are going on in this passage, which makes my point. Jhana by itself is not going to bring an end to kama.
As I said, Jhana is not going to magically remove desire; I have been arguing from the beginning that both insight and Jhana pleasure are required, just like both a sharp blade and heavy handle are required for a functional axe.
Now, you are the one who has brought into this discussion "dry-insight." I did mention it, not did I allude to it and it really has not a thing to do with what I said.
One who says that sensual desire can be removed without the need for Jhana is by definition a proponent of dry insight, at least in the sense that I understand it. Please correct me if that is inaccurate.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by tiltbillings »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Two things are going on in this passage, which makes my point. Jhana by itself is not going to bring an end to kama.
As I said, Jhana is not going to magically remove desire;
Only after I questioned your initial statement: Jhana, when practiced diligently, removes sensual craving, subdues hindrances, and allows for deeper and more penetrating insight.
I have been arguing from the beginning that both insight and Jhana pleasure are required,
That certainly was not clear in what you wrote "from the beginning."
Now, you are the one who has brought into this discussion "dry-insight." I did not mention it, nor did I allude to it and it really has not a thing to do with what I said.
One who says that sensual desire can be removed without the need for Jhana is by definition a proponent of dry insight, at least in the sense that I understand it. Please correct me if that is inaccurate.
It is, indeed, inaccurate. Again, kama is an asava and it removed at the level of the non-returner, and I believe that some level of jhana is required for that. And again, this "dry-insight" business is not something I brought into this discussion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:As I said, Jhana is not going to magically remove desire;
Only after I questioned your initial statement: Jhana, when practiced diligently, removes sensual craving, subdues hindrances, and allows for deeper and more penetrating insight.[/quote]
Perhaps I was vague; it is more accurate to say that Jhana, when practiced diligently, allows for the removal of sensual craving - when teamed with insight, which I just assume is a given. Very few people think that you can become enlightened through purely Jhana without insight, or even that Jhana is possible without insight.

But yes, you're right, obviously both Jhana and insight (or more accurately, both insight and tranquility, the two mutually-supporting qualities of Jhana) are responsible for lessening sensual desire.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by Spiny Norman »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:This text is not saying that jhana by itself, jhana alone, will remove sensuality.
It is clearly saying that piti and sukha, the defining characteristics of the first Jhana, are the direct antidotes to sensuality. I'm not arguing that Jhana magically removes sensuality just by being there, but that Jhana brings about levels of pleasure and rapture capable of ending sensual desire in ways that pure insight cannot.
That's how it looks to me - jhana as an antidote to the hindrances, effectively replacing unwholesome states of mind with wholesome ones. I've been looking recently at the 7 factors of enlightenment, and I can see some parallels there, ie developing the 7 factors instead of "developing" the 5 hindrances ( see SN 46 ).
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Re: 1st jhana factors: theory vs experience

Post by tiltbillings »

porpoise wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:This text is not saying that jhana by itself, jhana alone, will remove sensuality.
It is clearly saying that piti and sukha, the defining characteristics of the first Jhana, are the direct antidotes to sensuality. I'm not arguing that Jhana magically removes sensuality just by being there, but that Jhana brings about levels of pleasure and rapture capable of ending sensual desire in ways that pure insight cannot.
That's how it looks to me - jhana as an antidote to the hindrances, effectively replacing unwholesome states of mind with wholesome ones. I've been looking recently at the 7 factors of enlightenment, and I can see some parallels there, ie developing the 7 factors instead of "developing" the 5 hindrances ( see SN 46 ).
Yes, but did you read the whole exchsange? Jhana alone will not remove kama.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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