Not-Thinking as a practice

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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imagemarie
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by imagemarie »

Hi Jackson


Well, some people claim that the term is an oxymoron (Ajahn Brahm?). Because to be able to attain the state of jhana, requires some degree of letting go of self proliferating. That jhana is a kind of free-falling which once initiated, leaves little to attach to. Piti, sukkha etc. are seen to arise and pass.

Others claim that the "bliss states", and beyond, can provide a false haven, or temporary refuge where the notional self can choose to hang out.
Hence "jhana wallah".

I think probably the only resolution to this argument is to test it.

Saying that, I did find this book to be worthwhile.. :tongue:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Experience- ... 999&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
nibbuti
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by nibbuti »

imagemarie wrote:Well, some people claim that the term is an oxymoron (Ajahn Brahm?). Because to be able to attain the state of jhana, requires some degree of letting go of self proliferating. That jhana is a kind of free-falling which once initiated, leaves little to attach to. Piti, sukkha etc. are seen to arise and pass.

Others claim that the "bliss states", and beyond, can provide a false haven, or temporary refuge where the notional self can choose to hang out.
Hence "jhana wallah".

Only what is based on craving (for jhana), rather than on letting go, can provide a false haven.

So it should really be 'nose tip' wallah or craving wallah.

:anjali:
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kirk5a
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by kirk5a »

Wakeful non-thinking is not stone-like. Not remotely. On the contrary, it allows for the development of energy, a factor of awakening, rather than its dispersal down the endless rabbit-warrens of the mind. If it was stone-like, the Buddha wouldn't have advocated it. Which he did, as I have pointed out. To further this point:
He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Trivial thoughts, subtle thoughts,
Mental jerkings that follow one along:
Not understanding these mental thoughts,
One runs back and forth with wandering mind.

But having known these mental thoughts,
The ardent and mindful one restrains them.
An awakened one has entirely abandoned them,
These mental jerkings that follow one along.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For one who has mindfulness of in-&-out breathing well established to the fore within oneself, annoying external thoughts & inclinations don't exist.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Dhammanando
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Dhammanando »

jackson wrote:Pardon my ignorance and slight derailment of the topic, but could someone explain what a Jhana-Wallah is for those of us who don't know the term? I tried looking it up but had no success.
Thanks :anjali:
In about the mid-80's the term "vipassanā-wallah" came into use as either a jocular term for persons committed to one or another of the modern systems of dry insight meditation or a pejorative term for persons fanatical about the same. I don't know who came up with the term, but I first heard it myself from the Aussie Patrick Kearney when he was a monk in Thailand.

In more recent years, with the growth of interest in absorption practice, "jhāna-wallah" has come into use to denote those with a similar dedication to samatha-bhāvanā.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Mr Man
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Mr Man »

kirk5a wrote:Wakeful non-thinking is not stone-like. Not remotely. On the contrary, it allows for the development of energy, a factor of awakening, rather than its dispersal down the endless rabbit-warrens of the mind.
Well said. I think it is certainly worth exploring.
jackson
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by jackson »

Dhammanando wrote: In about the mid-80's the term "vipassanā-wallah" came into use as either a jocular term for persons committed to one or another of the modern systems of dry insight meditation or a pejorative term for persons fanatical about the same. I don't know who came up with the term, but I first heard it myself from the Aussie Patrick Kearney when he was a monk in Thailand.

In more recent years, with the growth of interest in absorption practice, "jhāna-wallah" has come into use to denote those with a similar dedication to samatha-bhāvanā.
Thank you for the interesting bit of history Venerable Dhammanando. I'd also like to take this time to say it's great to see you posting on these boards again, I enjoy reading your posts very much.
Anyway, :focus:
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
danieLion
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by danieLion »

Alex123 wrote:Experience is always direct. Thoughts about it, are at best one level removed from actual experience.

So, when we're thinking, we're not experiencing? They can never occur simultaneously?

Maybe thinking is a form of experience; maybe thinking and experiencing are concomitants?

And are you saying thinking is epiphenomonal to experiencing?
daverupa
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by daverupa »

There's direct experience, and reflexion which is awareness of experiencing. So there's "ouch!" and there's "a pain is felt", and this last is sampajanna. It isn't that a sentence is necessarily formed per se, but there's an awareness of sense input which limits or prevents it from invading the mind and remaining & which differs from "whatever is, is".

This reflexion is what allows for right effort. If the brute impact of sense-impressions are not addressed with right effort - which takes vitakka-vicara at first, then only later is it done sans vitakka, then later sans vitakka-vicara - so without this right effort, where is the bhavana?

Many people seem to think that thinking is wrong or an obstacle, but this is exactly required in the gradual training...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
danieLion
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by danieLion »

Hi Dave,
A sharp distinction between experience and reflex is difficult at best. E.g., the James-Lange theory of emotion has it as, "We don't cry because we're sad, we're sad because we cry." Or in your example, "ouch" is the experience of contact, "pain is felt" is the experience of the reaction. They're both experience, and awareness itself a type of experience. Experience isnt' just what happens to us; it's also how we happen.
daverupa
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by daverupa »

danieLion wrote:A sharp distinction between experience and reflex is difficult at best.
We don't need a sharp distinction; any distinction which indicates that we are to note our behaviors, rather than let them pass unnoticed, is going in the right direction.

And, at first and likely for some time, this requires thinking.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
danieLion
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by danieLion »

daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:A sharp distinction between experience and reflex is difficult at best.
We don't need a sharp distinction; any distinction which indicates that we are to note our behaviors, rather than let them pass unnoticed, is going in the right direction.

And, at first and likely for some time, this requires thinking.
Well said. Clarifying too. Thanks.
PS: "Thinking is behaving." B.F. Skinner
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Mr Man
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Mr Man »

"experience and reflex" does that equal Vedana and Tanha?
daverupa
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by daverupa »

Mr Man wrote:"experience and reflex" does that equal Vedana and Tanha?
It doesn't really break down in that way, as I use the terms.

Experience is the brute sense input (any of six), and reflexion is awareness of the experience. In other words, reflexion is the opposite of the "auto-pilot" phenomenon where, for example, you'll walk or drive for a distance and then 'snap-to' and realize you haven't been aware for a time.

In the autopilot scenario, vedana, tanha, etc. - all present, but awareness was not present. The only difference in the reflexion scenario is the presence of awareness.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Kay Bee
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Kay Bee »

I have done that "not thinking" a few times and each was for the whole day. It did clear the mind and as I noticed after I ended it, very little joke was more than enough to make me laugh.
It is a very beautiful thing to do, and I have been trying to do it again lately.

And it was still possible to "know" and do things. It was like when you sit and breathe, you don't need to think to know that you're breathing. The same is when you feel an itch and scratch it. There's no need to think to feel and scratch it.
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Mr Man
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Mr Man »

Thanks Dave, I didn't read you first post properly and picked up on "experience and reflex" from danieLion's post. I have always looked at thought and thinking in terms of ideas formulated into language within the brain, which is rather narrow. I had looked upon sampajanna as being separate from thought and vitakka/vicara more as functions of mind. With my narrow definition of thought I would say that Not-thinking does become a useful object for meditation.
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