Not-Thinking as a practice

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
pegembara
Posts: 3454
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by pegembara »

What if a person practices not thinking? It seems to me that wrong views, intellectual doubts, conceivings are made up of abstract thoughts or thoughts about event that has occurred. Without thinking "I am this... My true Self is that... I love this, I hate this..." at that moment of not thinking could there be views about the Self? Without thinking, at that moment, can there be wrong theories?

English word "sweet" and actual experience of sugar on the tongue are different, and experience doesn't require the thought. There is no false experience. There are only false theories and interpretations of experience. Things are not as they seem, yet they aren't otherwise either.

Thoughts are at least one level removed from experience, and at worst totally unrelated, false and misleading. And when people argue, they argue over their thoughts and thought patterns.

Even thoughts, no matter how correct and well reasoned, about what is seen, heard, etc, add a layer of interpretation so that experience is no longer "direct". Angry thoughts add anger, while lustful thoughts add more lust.
There is direct experience of sights, sounds, smells and even thoughts. All that arises in direct experience passes away - this includes thoughts of "I, me, mine, you, yours, others etc". Sabbe sankhara anicca.

What is left after this is not self either. Sabbe dhamma anatta.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
nibbuti
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:36 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by nibbuti »

@ Alex123

It is best to forget about "non-conceiving" altogether, instead think it of wise-conceiving.

i.e. to wisely regard all conditioned things as ultimately impermanent and unsatisfactory, and all things including Nibbana as not 'I' or 'mine'.

Then conceiving will occur naturally when it is necessary, and non-conceiving will occur when it is adequate.

(Also please note, MN 1 was for sons of Brahmins, who were used to being segregated into 4 classes.)

:anjali:
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by SarathW »

Hi Alex
you wrote:
What if a person practices not thinking?

To me it sound like Nither perception nor non perception state. Even in that state you have some thoughts.
You have to come out of that to attain Nirvana. I think Buddha has some thoughts untill he attains Parinibbana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Mr Man »

Hi Alex123
Noticing Space taken from a talk by Ajahn Sumedho http://www.tricycle.com/dharma-talk/noticing-space May be of interest (again). Ajahn Sumedho often talked about focusing on the space around thought which I guess you could call taking the non-thinking mind as an object. This is somthing that you can tune into fairly easily once you get the hang of it - a skillfull means.
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by SarathW »

Mr Man
I think that you mean the Dhayna infinity of space. In that state you are thinking about the space.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Alex123 »

Bhante,

Thank you for your reply,
Dhammanando wrote:If one is a worldling there is no 'how' about it. One cannot not conceive, nor is not conceiving one’s task. Likewise if one is an arahant there is no 'how' about it: having cut off the fetter of māna the arahant does not have to deliberately refrain from conceiving any more than he needs to deliberately abstain from immoral conduct.

Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?


With best wishes,

Alex
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Mr Man »

SarathW wrote:Mr Man
I think that you mean the Dhayna infinity of space. In that state you are thinking about the space.
Hi SarathW,
I guess it would depend on what we understood "think" to be. From the OP I had understood thought to be mental dialogue.
Last edited by Mr Man on Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhammanando wrote:A worldling who believes that the abandoning of māna consists in the deliberate avoidance of thinking and conceiving will be going about things the wrong way. He will probably just end up frustrated, unless he’s a jhāna-wallah and very strongly committed to deliberate abstention from thinking, in which case he may arrive at the impercipient attainment and end up spending a few kalpas in the Brahmā realms as an anthropomorphic block of stone.
Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Dhammanando »

Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Alex123 »

Bhante,
Dhammanando wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.
So one practices/develops N8P?

What is wrong with practicing to avoid thinking with greed, anger and delusion? Isn't that part of N8P? Doesn't it help N8P?


With best wishes,

Alex
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Dhammanando »

Alex123 wrote:What is wrong with practicing to avoid thinking with greed, anger and delusion?
Nothing, but that's rather different from the non-thinking tout court that you were advocating earlier.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Dhammanando »

Cittasanto wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:A worldling who believes that the abandoning of māna consists in the deliberate avoidance of thinking and conceiving will be going about things the wrong way. He will probably just end up frustrated, unless he’s a jhāna-wallah and very strongly committed to deliberate abstention from thinking, in which case he may arrive at the impercipient attainment and end up spending a few kalpas in the Brahmā realms as an anthropomorphic block of stone.
Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?
I understand that sutta to be about the overcoming of the five hindrances in samatha-bhāvanā. Both a Buddhist jhāna-wallah and a non-Buddhist yogi striving to become a block of stone via the impercipient attainment (asaññā-samāpatti) would of course need to do this, for the latter attainment, though not at all approved in Buddhist tradition, does require jhānic proficiency as its foundation.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dhammanando wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.
:bow:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhammanando wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?
I understand that sutta to be about the overcoming of the five hindrances in samatha-bhāvanā. Both a Buddhist jhāna-wallah and a non-Buddhist yogi striving to become a block of stone via the impercipient attainment (asaññā-samāpatti) would of course need to do this, for the latter attainment, though not at all approved in Buddhist tradition, does require jhānic proficiency as its foundation.
:anjali:
Thank-you Ajahn,
I feel I was unclear by choosing the wrong post you made to quote. I was thinking more about this when the Sutta came to mind
Dhammanando wrote:Conceiving (maññati, e.g., "he conceives earth...") is what the worldling does do, what the sekha ought not to do, and what the asekha (arahant) does not do.
I Although applying it to more daily life when we may have thoughts and ideas surrounding something increasing (proliferation) instead of dealing with facts of a situation.
However thing the link I made was incorrect.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
jackson
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by jackson »

Pardon my ignorance and slight derailment of the topic, but could someone explain what a Jhana-Wallah is for those of us who don't know the term? I tried looking it up but had no success.
Thanks :anjali:
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
Post Reply