attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by nibbuti »

robertk wrote:That being said I will add something as time permits in a day or two
Take as much time as you wish to answer the questions above, robertk.

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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk »

Mr. Grimnasty wrote:
robertk wrote:
are there other ways for uninstructed worldlings to reliably know that kamma and rebirth are true?
That is what the first post in this thread explains.
Okay, but could I ask you to say a little more on this topic. You stated: "Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana, meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma)."

Now presumably in the moment a person gets to paccayapariggahanana she doesn't literally see EVERY moment in that particular moment, right? So would it be correct to say that the epistemic status of her new-found knowledge is inferential? In other words, at paccayapariggahanana she sees with insight dhamma-x conditioning the arising of dhamma-y, and then she extrapolates to conclude that every arising of a y is conditioned by an x.

Or are you saying that there is no inferring here at all, but that a knowledge of the universal applicability of what the person sees is in fact intrinsic to paccayapariggahanana, i.e. the moment she sees with insight an instance of x conditioning y she infallibly knows that all y's arise from x's?

If the former, how might her inference be defended against the charge of being simply a bloated conclusion?
?
Great questions that would even tax the ancients, I presume.
The vipassana nanas, as I think you know, are the product of deep aand deepening wisdom, uncontrollable, and unstoppable if wisdom is developed. But they occur in flashedsof mindoor processes that clearly distinguish very precisely nama from rupa until even the causes and effects of nama and rupa are discerned. It is not like usual moments of daily life, it is irreversible direct seeing that there is only nama and rupa, no self.
Yet even with these profound moments where this seemingly solid world is overturned is only a glimpse into kamma and result- compared to what a Buddha knows:


Vis (section on purification by overcoming doubt)
.17. The succession of kamma and its result in the twelve classes of kamma is
clear in its true nature only to the Buddhas’ “knowledge of kamma and its
result,” which knowledge is not shared by disciples.6 But the succession of
kamma and its result can be known in part by one practicing insight.
So by seeeing directly, so profoundly, although weakly , the actual elemental conditions, all doubt about past and future is uprooted:
18. When he has thus seen by means of the round of kamma and the round of
kamma-result how mentality-materiality’s occurrence is due to a condition, he
sees that as now, so in the past, its occurrence was due to a condition by means
of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result, and that in the future its
occurrence will be due to a condition by means of the round of kamma and the
round of kamma-result.
Yet it must be admitted that inference plays its part in the sense that one who is not a Buddha cannot know past moment trillions of aeons ago, nor aeons ahead in the future. Yet the confidence in Dhamma and conditionality is deeper , for the one who sees this than even for one skilled in samatha who can see past lives.

The one who sees past lives- due to true samatha- might still wonder if before the period of time, perhaps millions of lives ago, that he has access to, there was some God or evolution, or big bang that started it all. His doubt is not fully removed .

The vipassana adept has seen the conditionality too directly, he knows that there is no God or chance occurnece behind the arising of becoming:
Vis> In all kinds of becoming, generation, destiny, station, and abode there appears
only mentality-materiality, which occurs by means of linking of cause with fruit.
He sees no doer over and above the doing, no experiencer of the result over and
above the occurrence of the result. But he sees clearly with right understanding
that the wise say “doer” when there is doing and “experiencer” when there is
experiencing simply as a mode of common usage.
20. Hence the Ancients said:
There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.
And so, while kamma and result
Thus causally maintain their round,
As seed and tree succeed in turn,
No first beginning can be shown.
Nor in the future round of births
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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk »

nibbuti wrote:
robertk wrote:one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth
Are you aware that the doubt hindrance (vicikicchā), as the Buddha taught it, is specifically about wholesome & unwholesome states (dhammas) and their causes, in the sense of the four noble truths, which doesn't have to include just any dogma or view that is considered 'Buddhist'?

:
"Monks I know not of any other single thing so greatly to be blamed
as perverted view. Perverted views at their worst are greatly to be
blamed".
Anguttara Nikaya 1,17,10. Chapter XVIII Makkhali (page 29
gradual sayings vol.I)
The worst type of unwholesome state is that associated with wrong view.
With wrong view there will be no eightfold path - viz the four noble truths.
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manas
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by manas »

Over and over, I read in suttas that upon arahantship, one knows that "birth is destroyed, done is what had to be done, the holy life has been fulfilled, there is nothing further here" (for this world). The notion of rebirth in accordance with kamma seems to pervade the suttas. Why exult that "birth has been destroyed" unless you knew that, ordinarily, you were headed for rebirth?
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by nibbuti »

robertk wrote:"Monks I know not of any other single thing so greatly to be blamed
as perverted view. Perverted views at their worst are greatly to be
blamed".
Anguttara Nikaya 1,17,10. Chapter XVIII Makkhali (page 29
gradual sayings vol.I)
The worst type of unwholesome state is that associated with wrong view.
With wrong view there will be no eightfold path - viz the four noble truths.
Thanks robertk, but that doesn't answer my question. I've never denied any of those things that are listed under wrong view (miccha-ditthi):
And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously (mentally) reborn beings (sattā opapātikā); no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. - M 117
Regarding the doubt hindrance (vicikicchā) you addressed earlier when you said "one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth", the Buddha said doubt falls away at stream-entry:
"Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.

"These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry." - AN 6.97
What is 'true' or 'uncommon knowledge' according to the Buddha?
"Upali, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities do not lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, nor to Unbinding': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" - AN 7.79
Nina van Gorkom said regarding the doubt hindrance (vicikicchā):
The reality of vicikicchā is not the same as what we mean by doubt in conventional language. Vicikicchā is not doubt about someone's name or about the weather. Vicikicchā is doubt about realities, about nāma and rūpa, about cause and result, about the four noble Truths, about the “Dependant Origination” - Nina van Gorkom
Happy (certain and stable in the Dhamma) New Year

:anjali:
Last edited by nibbuti on Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:24 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Mr. Grimnasty
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Mr. Grimnasty »

robertk wrote:Dear Mr Grimm
"Grimnasty". No relative of those fairy tale-writing brothers.
You are clearly well-studied in Dhamma, and insightful to boot. I can certainly give some replies to your questions but seriously I think you could do just as well.
I'm afraid not. My talent is limited to spotting problems. I'm a basketcase when it comes to finding solutions to them - for that I have to turn to wiser heads. Thanks a lot for your thoughtful response.
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Mr. Grimnasty »

robertk wrote:
robertk wrote:one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth
nibbuti wrote: Are you aware that the doubt hindrance (vicikicchā), as the Buddha taught it, is specifically about wholesome & unwholesome states (dhammas) and their causes, in the sense of the four noble truths, which doesn't have to include just any dogma or view that is considered 'Buddhist'?
In the Dhammasangani the fetter of doubt includes doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, the training, the past and future, and idapaccayata. I think most of these are mentioned in various suttas too.
If someone's abandoned doubts about the Buddha and now has "unshakable faith" in him (one of the attributes of a stream enterer according to the Datthabba Sutta), I shouldn't imagine she'd have any hesitation at all in accepting Buddhist dogmas.
I mean don't you think it would be a bit odd for a person of unshakable faith to say: "Gotama may have had some cool things to say about the four truths, but I think he was must have been having a bad hair day when he taught all that kamma and rebirth baloney" ?

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this: 'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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alan...
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by alan... »

robertk wrote:
in reality one does not need to know anything about rebirth at all. one can simply practice the dhamma, see through reality bit by bit and eventually enter nibbana never knowing a thing about rebirth being real or not
Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana , meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma). . It is also called kankhavitarana visuddhi ( Escape from all Doubt Purification- one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth)
hey that's my quote! interesting. i wonder if it's a clearly specified necessity in the pali canon? or if any texts imply that one can reach nibbana without knowledge about it? i know there are some instances where people reach nibbana (or other high attainment) simply by hearing the buddha talk. the one i can think of is where he spoke to the assassins, but the talk is not detailed so i don't know whether it covered rebirth or not. so this could be some support for my idea. who knows? anyone have good canon references that say very clearly one must know about rebirth or that one can not know about it?

perhaps it's a theoretical question that really cannot be answered.

maybe a question such as: could the buddha have lead someone to nibbana without ever telling them about rebirth?

i think he could have, and in all likelihood he did, i just don't know of where it's in the suttas specifically. i know many times he gave dhamma talks to large groups of monks who were of other traditions and many attained dhamma attainments upon hearing his words and that the suttas do not always specify that they knew about the buddha's specific rebirth teachings prior to the talk nor that the buddha mentions rebirth specifically in said talk (but i could be wrong...).
daverupa
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by daverupa »

Mr. Grimnasty wrote:I mean don't you think it would be a bit odd for a person of unshakable faith to say: "Gotama may have had some cool things to say about the four truths, but I think he was must have been having a bad hair day when he taught all that kamma and rebirth baloney" ?
Obviously, there isn't a 1:1 correlation between the Nikayas and what we'd have if there had been audio recording for ~45 years. It's simply problematic to wave the Nikayas and say "the Buddha said it", to say nothing of much of the Tipitika.

This might seem to go without saying, but when this fact is allowed, a not altogether unexpected cultural impact on the texts can start to be examined - and, far from considering the Buddha to be a frazzled teacher, we can consider the oral tradition to be comprised of historical humans.

This isn't the sub-forum for this kind of thing, but I felt a note in passing was justified.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mr. Grimnasty
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Mr. Grimnasty »

daverupa wrote:Obviously, there isn't a 1:1 correlation between the Nikayas and what we'd have if there had been audio recording for ~45 years. It's simply problematic to wave the Nikayas and say "the Buddha said it", to say nothing of much of the Tipitika.
I don't think it's "simply problematic". Rather, it's problematic in certain cases, but not in others. For example, it's problematic in cases where interpreters of the Nikayas are attempting to draw large conclusions from rather slim textual evidence, especially where that evidence is amenable to a variety of interpretations. But only the most rascally disingenué would stoop to asserting that Nikaya-waving is problematic in the case of a teaching as scripturally omnipresent as kamma and rebirth.

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daverupa
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by daverupa »

Well, in any event I agree it's anything but simple when the textual chronology is considered.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by nibbuti »

Mr. Grimnasty wrote:If someone's abandoned doubts about the Buddha and now has "unshakable faith" in him (one of the attributes of a stream enterer according to the Datthabba Sutta), I shouldn't imagine she'd have any hesitation at all in accepting Buddhist dogmas.
What is the abandonment of doubts regarding the Dhamma based on? What makes this different from a 'new born' Christian who has entered the Jesus-stream and, from there on, believes the Earth is 6000 years old?
Mr. Grimnasty wrote:But only the most rascally disingenué would stoop to asserting that Nikaya-waving is problematic in the case of a teaching as scripturally omnipresent as kamma and rebirth.
It would be problematic in the case of kamma and rebirth to deny it is present. But I don't think it is omnipresent, rather mostly taught as a moral teaching or in a specific context. Not once does the Buddha care to explain how post-mortem rebirth works (unlike in the case of dependent origination of dukkha).

Also, any translation is an interpretation with different emphasis. When I talk to a faithful Christian I have no problem mentioning God as a synonym for 'nature' or 'father figure'. It comes with common language. But that does not mean belief in God is essential to me, or that it requires a 'father figure' to understand 'nature'.

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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Mr. Grimnasty »

nibbuti wrote:What is the abandonment of doubts regarding the Dhamma based on?
The arising of a deep insight into the nature of things as a consequence of hearing the Dhamma and which would not otherwise have arisen. Having found the Dhamma reliable in this, one is disposed to treat it as reliable in everything else.
What makes this different from a 'new born' Christian who has entered the Jesus-stream and, from there on, believes the Earth is 6000 years old?
The noble disciple has unshakable saddha in the Dhamma; the born-again Christian has unwholesome resolvedness upon (akusala adhimokkha) and attachment to (lobha) the theistic superstition.
The noble disciple has a samsaric heritage sufficiently replete with wisdom that he can discern the faithworthiness of faithworthy objects (the Triple Gem), encountering which is the proximate cause of saddha. The born-again Christian has a samsaric heritage that has left him so lacking in panna that he cannot discern the wrongness in a serious wrong view.

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alan...
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by alan... »

daverupa wrote:
Mr. Grimnasty wrote:I mean don't you think it would be a bit odd for a person of unshakable faith to say: "Gotama may have had some cool things to say about the four truths, but I think he was must have been having a bad hair day when he taught all that kamma and rebirth baloney" ?
Obviously, there isn't a 1:1 correlation between the Nikayas and what we'd have if there had been audio recording for ~45 years. It's simply problematic to wave the Nikayas and say "the Buddha said it", to say nothing of much of the Tipitika.

This might seem to go without saying, but when this fact is allowed, a not altogether unexpected cultural impact on the texts can start to be examined - and, far from considering the Buddha to be a frazzled teacher, we can consider the oral tradition to be comprised of historical humans.

This isn't the sub-forum for this kind of thing, but I felt a note in passing was justified.
either we accept the tipitaka as authoritative, or we don't. there is some room for saying things like "this passage appears only ONE time in the entire canon and disagrees with EVERYTHING else in it. it probably does not belong." or something similar to that. however to say anything about what the buddha did or did not say in regards to something so common and specific as his talks on rebirth is to throw out the entire tipitaka as unreliable. if all those instances are some kind of bad transmission then so is everything else and none of it has any real value beyond what each individual finds useful for them personally. if we do that we are down to just personal experience, hypothesis, and conjecture and this entire thread has no use to anyone any more in a buddhist sense and is just a thread about opinions and random thoughts that could just as well exist on facebook or somewhere else that has nothing to do with any of this.

clearly this thread is about theravada buddhism. being that it's posted on this forum and is about doctrinal questions, it is only logical to look into the doctrine of theravada buddhism. if you're going to throw the doctrinal texts out as unreliable then the thread itself loses purpose for you so why keep at it if you feel this way? see what i'm saying? if you don't believe the texts are accurate then you have made your stake in this discussion redundant since the discussion is about the information found in those very texts more or less as beyond the texts there is really no official authority on things such as "attaining nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth" and other such things.
daverupa
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by daverupa »

Yeah, as I had said "This isn't the sub-forum for this kind of thing", but the flippant remark to which I was drawn was low-hanging fruit.

Bad habits, alas.

:toast:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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