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attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth - Dhamma Wheel

attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

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robertk
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attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby robertk » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:16 pm


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Alex123
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby Alex123 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:29 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby robertk » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:36 pm

It is seen directly that the previous moments condition this moment and thus rebirth is seen momentarily. One knows that it is impossible for citta to arise without prior cittas conditioning it.

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Alex123
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby Alex123 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:32 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby robertk » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:04 am

Apparently if the stage of vipassana is reached then the actual conditions are known, and so it would be clear that the parents cittas play no part: they are completely separate.
The same regarding any influence from the 'brain'.

SarathW
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby SarathW » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:22 am

HI
My understanding is
- That there is no doer (person) of Kamma and hence there is no one to experience it. Just the phenomena flow on.
- There is no place called Nibbana and no person to attain it and nothing to be attained!
- So ???? who am I and my parents and my thoughts?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Sylvester
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby Sylvester » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:13 am

Let alone Full Awakening, I doubt if one could even attain Stream Entry without knowing about kamma and rebirth.

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Mr. Grimnasty
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby Mr. Grimnasty » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:23 pm



nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby nibbuti » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:00 pm


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Mr. Grimnasty
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby Mr. Grimnasty » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:50 pm


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reflection
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby reflection » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:00 am

After stream entry there is no more doubt about the dhamma, including rebirth and kamma, because one important aspect of stream entry is understanding how the process of rebirth occurs. So full faith in rebirth & kamma and stream entry are sort of at the same moment. And attaining nibbana can't happen without knowing about those things; partly it is those things that drive towards nibbana.

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Mr. Grimnasty
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby Mr. Grimnasty » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:42 am


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reflection
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby reflection » Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:23 am

I see it in the texts. For example: "one who sees the dhamma sees dependent origination" and how stream entry removes doubt.

But of course I don't know what may be sufficient for everybody. That'll differ per person. It's like those guidelines indicating how much to eat per day. Some people need more of particular things, some need less. Likewise, some may need to remind themselves of rebirth to generate effort, while others don't or not that much. But intertwined in seeing the four noble truths is how craving leads to rebirth, so at least that'll be an extra push.

Main thing is we indeed keep generating effort through whatever means. I also think to keep investigating rebirth will be beneficial.

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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby robertk » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:52 pm

Dear Mr Grimm
You are clearly well-studied in Dhamma, and insightful to boot. I can certainly give some replies to your questions but seriously I think you could do just as well.
That being said I will add something as time permits in a day or two
robert

nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby nibbuti » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:47 pm




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manas
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby manas » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Over and over, I read in suttas that upon arahantship, one knows that "birth is destroyed, done is what had to be done, the holy life has been fulfilled, there is nothing further here" (for this world). The notion of rebirth in accordance with kamma seems to pervade the suttas. Why exult that "birth has been destroyed" unless you knew that, ordinarily, you were headed for rebirth?
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Postby nibbuti » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:12 pm

Last edited by nibbuti on Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:24 pm, edited 5 times in total.


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