Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Kaktus
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Kaktus »

bodom wrote:This article will help clarify the differences:

http://sites.google.com/site/dhammadhar ... arison-faq" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Great!

Excactly what i was looking for. The mist around the whole problem cleared a bit ...
English isn´t my native language. So please accept my apologies for my kind of spelling and grammar ;-)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto »

phalanyani wrote:Hi Manapa,

it's really nice to hear that the upcoming ordination of the Siladaras as Bhikkhunis in California will not have consternation as a result in England! Good news. And right from the source, right?
all the best for you!

Phalanyani Bhikkhuni
I was more refering to the use of imagination over reality, however it certainly wasn't my sense at the time of the anouncement, and although I am here, it certainly isn't the source, as in authoritive speaking for a group, more my own sence of things. if anyone did have those feelings, I certainly didn't notice it from my vantage point.

may the four who went there originally all be well and happy.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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saccaparami
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by saccaparami »

Hi Manapa,

it's really nice to hear that the upcoming ordination of the Siladaras as Bhikkhunis in California will not have consternation as a result in England! Good news. And right from the source, right?
all the best for you!

Phalanyani "Bhikkhuni"
It is a shame that the siladharas were brainwashed into believing that those ordinations are legitimate.
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pilgrim
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by pilgrim »

Another sad little post in the series...
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by daverupa »

"It is a shame that saccaparami was brainwashed into believing that those ordinations aren't legitimate."

Fixed that for you. Get well soon.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Thanavuddho
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Thanavuddho »

I think there are two different issues here: First is the issue of Ajahn Brahm and the other is about the bhikkhuni ordination. After considering both of this things, I think that meaby it is possible to have fully ordained bhikkhunis, at least in the West. This is perhaps a good idea. This is how I feel about it. 

I don't know if it is possible to have bhikkhunis here in Thailand. Meaby after they will be establised it the West first. Then in the future we can introduce them in Thailand as well. The senior monks are getting old and we will have a new generation of monks coming soon, both westeners and thais.

I would like to see Tan Chao Khun Brahmavamso accepted back to the larger international Wat Nong Pah Pong Sangha. I am afraid that this will not happen in the near future, at least not in the official level. But when the new generation of monks will be more senior, then meaby.

I think there were monks both western and thais who did not approve Ajahn Brahm and they got the opportunity to expel him from WNPP. They were extremely clumsy in dealing with the public media. They made themselves look really bad and Ajahn Brahm look like the shining hero of the story.
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pilgrim
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by pilgrim »

Thanavuddho wrote:
I would like to see Tan Chao Khun Brahmavamso accepted back to the larger international Wat Nong Pah Pong Sangha. I am afraid that this will not happen in the near future, at least not in the official level. But when the new generation of monks will be more senior, then meaby.
.
Dear bhante,
I'd like to see that happen too. I appreciate both Aj Brahm and the WPP sangha. I have heard that Aj Brahm had made repeated overtures for reconciliation and forgiveness and I deeply respect his humility for this. I have also attended talks by the sangha of WPP. Although I respect these venerable teachers, I have to admit that some of their talks which often touch on aspects of forgiveness, acceptance, compassion and kindness sound hollow. The sooner they reconcile, the better it would be for the community which draws their inspiration from these teachers. I have been wronged before too and frankly, I sometimes think that even a little worldling like me has a greater capacity for forgiveness, so it is incredibly frustrating that they can't see the immense damage their actions or inaction is causing.
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Thanavuddho
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Thanavuddho »

pilgrim wrote: Dear bhante,
I'd like to see that happen too. I appreciate both Aj Brahm and the WPP sangha. I have heard that Aj Brahm had made repeated overtures for reconciliation and forgiveness and I deeply respect his humility for this. I have also attended talks by the sangha of WPP. Although I respect these venerable teachers, I have to admit that some of their talks which often touch on aspects of forgiveness, acceptance, compassion and kindness sound hollow. The sooner they reconcile, the better it would be for the community which draws their inspiration from these teachers. I have been wronged before too and frankly, I sometimes think that even a little worldling like me has a greater capacity for forgiveness, so it is incredibly frustrating that they can't see the immense damage their actions or inaction is causing.
until recently I too had the view (against my better judgement) that Ajahn Brahm and his supporters were the ones who were wrong in this debate. This was because of the storng faith I had in some of the teachers who were criticizing Ajahn Brahm.

I have been criticizing Ajahn Brahm myself on some occasions, even though I did try to remain silent. I did not want to get involved in this debate, because I saw it as a potential way of creating unnecessary bad kamma.

Resently I questioned my teachers and I discovered that I don't agree with them in everything anymore. First thing that came into my mind then was Ajahn Brahm and the bhikkhuni debate. I rethought about it and did some new research.

I do understand both sides of this debate. Please be patient with the different sides. There is a reason why people like me can be critical of Ajahn Brahm. But we can snap out of it in time.
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS »

Excellent, Bhante!

It is okay to change one's mind after reviewing facts, it shows flexibility and an open mind.

:bow:
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Ytrog
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Ytrog »

David N. Snyder wrote:Excellent, Bhante!

It is okay to change one's mind after reviewing facts, it shows flexibility and an open mind.

:bow:
:goodpost: Very true. I find it astonishing how little forgiveness is demonstrated in this matter while it was clearly not in violation of the Vinaya. Most of all: the act was harmless and came from good intentions.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
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lama tsewang
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by lama tsewang »

the quote from Dhammanando Bhikkhu is interesting , it was in one ofthe posts , it says that the Ven. Tao Hai of taiwan questions the lineages of Chinese Nuns,
Tao Hai is my upadhyaya , a few years back when he was in Vancouver , i was present w ith him when he spoke on this topic . He aid that some Tibetans wuestion the validity `of Chinese nuns , lineage.
He said that he does not question it s validity.
He said something VERY different from what is quoted by Dhammanando , please check your sources more carefully
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by lama tsewang »

Is it true that there is now a law in Thailand that if any monks participate in making a woman a Bhikkhuni, they ca be jailed?
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appicchato
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by appicchato »

Tried to find out if this is true, but no luck so far...source?...

In Thailand, anything goes...so very well may be...
daverupa
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by daverupa »

Here is an article from 2011; apparently they do not have legal recognition, so perhaps the jailed issue relates to this?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Dan74
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Dan74 »

By all acounts Ajahn Bram has a large busy and thriving Sangha to take care of in Western Australia. So even though the issue must be sad and upsetting, he has plenty of positive things to occupy himself with at home.
_/|\_
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