Why is Satipatthana emphasized over Anapanasati?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Why is Satipatthana emphasized over Anapanasati?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:16 am

tiltbillings wrote:That is not quite correct, given that jhana practice can lead to wrong view. Jhana is a tool, definitely not an end in itself.

Of course not; liberation, the triple knowledge, etc. is the end goal, but that doesn't mean that all paths lead to it with equal efficacy.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Why is Satipatthana emphasized over Anapanasati?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:22 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is not quite correct, given that jhana practice can lead to wrong view. Jhana is a tool, definitely not an end in itself.

Of course not; liberation, the triple knowledge, etc. is the end goal, but that doesn't mean that all paths lead to it with equal efficacy.
I suppose, but unfortunately jhana has become an unfortunate buzz word.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why is Satipatthana emphasized over Anapanasati?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:I suppose, but unfortunately jhana has become an unfortunate buzz word.

I agree, but that doesn't mean it can be thrown out. The larger definition and practice of Jhana is admittedly broad but it's still verytempting to discount out of hand those who claim that Jhana, in whatever form they hold to, is unimportant, dangerous, unnecessary, or optional. All it takes is just a quick look at the suttas; traditions that pride themselves on "dry insight" without any Jhana framework are just flat-out ignoring the literally thousands of times the Pali Canon not only defines right concentration as Jhana but also extolls it as "the meditation the Blessed One approves of." Just because we have quibbles over the exact nature of Jhana does not mean we can just throw it out or make new systems to fit cultural trends instead of the suttas.

I'm not even accusing the larger Mahasi school of doing so, mind you; I think the Vipassana Jhana scheme is totally in line with the suttas (although I think the name is a little unfortunate) but it is undeniable that many who advocate "Satipatthana" as their main method actively discourage Jhana, "vipassana" or otherwise, or at least treat it with a dismissive attitude that shows a bizarre refusal to engage with the suttas on a level outside of cultural assumption.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Why is Satipatthana emphasized over Anapanasati?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:01 am

Hi LY,

Surely the deemphais on jhana by some teachers is simply a matter of what they find is useful for their particular students, given time and other limitations.

Many of Ajahn Chah's western students, for example, teach basically a vipassana-oriented approach. On one retreat I attended, Ajahn Tiradhammo (a Canadian who was with Ajahn Chah in the 70s and lived in my country for some time) observed that in his (extensive) teaching experience lay people trying to achieve deep jhana states during busy lives or on short retreats generally just got frustrated. So he didn't try to teach that way.

As his teacher says:
Ajahn Chah wrote:Some people find it hard to enter samādhi because they don't have the right tendencies. There is samādhi, but it's not strong or firm. However, one can attain peace through the use of wisdom, through contemplating and seeing the truth of things, solving problems that way. This is using wisdom rather than the power of samādhi. To attain calm in practice, it's not necessary to be sitting in meditation, for instance. Just ask yourself, ''Eh, what is that?... '' and solve your problem right there! A person with wisdom is like this. Perhaps he can't really attain high levels of samādhi, although there must be some, just enough to cultivate wisdom. It's like the difference between farming rice and farming corn. One can depend on rice more than corn for one's livelihood. Our practice can be like this, we depend more on wisdom to solve problems. When we see the truth, peace arises.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/On_Meditation1.php


We are fortunate to have such teachers...

:anjali:
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Re: Why is Satipatthana emphasized over Anapanasati?

Postby santa100 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:03 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
Where does the Buddha say that a path without Jhana should be followed? I think a clear examination of these texts, if free from cultural or traditional bias, shows that the Buddha saw Jhana as the "ultimate" form and not just "another way of doing it.


Jhana is a great tool, but it's not the only tool. From MN 70 on the Sevenfold classification of noble individuals based on their dominant faculty ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):

The Buddha:
What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called one liberated-by-wisdom.[703] I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent


And Ven. Bodhi noted:

[703]: Paññāvimutta. MA: This includes those who attain arahantship either as dry-insight meditators (sukkha-vipassaka) or after emerging from one or another of the four jhānas. The Pug definition merely substitutes the eight liberations for “those liberations…transcending forms.
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Re: Why is Satipatthana emphasized over Anapanasati?

Postby SarathW » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:30 pm

Buddha meditated and discovered the four noble truths. So I do not have to meditate again six years to re discover it. Scientist such as Humphrey Davy and Thomas Edison discovered the electricity and the light globe. If I need electricity simply I need to do is to on the switch. The same way I do not believe that we have to meditate to attain Nirvana. What we need is just to understand the Four Noble Truths. Having said that I do Samatha and Vipassana meditation. It is not easy for a person like me to understand Four Noble Truths by just reading a book.
Thanks every one and specially Santa and LY. I found some thing which I was looking for some time. I knew this but I need that to be supported by the teaching

Venerable Ananda: The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of meditation, nor did he condemn every type of meditation. What kind of meditation did the Blessed One not praise? Here, brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by sensual lust, a prey to sensual lust, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen sensual lust. While he harbors sensual lust within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. He abides with his mind obsessed by ill will, a prey to ill will...with his mind obsessed by sloth and torpor, a prey to sloth and torpor...with his mind obsessed by restlessness and remorse, a prey to restlessness and remorse...with his mind obsessed by doubt, a prey to doubt, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen doubt. While he harbors doubt within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. The Blessed One did not praise that kind of meditation.

27. “And what kind of meditation did the Blessed One praise? Here, brahmin, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna...With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, he enters upon and abides in the second jhāna...With the fading away as well of rapture...he enters upon and abides in the third jhāna...With the abandoning of pleasure and pain...he enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna...The Blessed One praised that kind of meditation.”

My queston to you all :Is this the difference between Samma Samadi and Mitya Samadi ?
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Re: Why is Satipatthana emphasized over Anapanasati?

Postby Sekha » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:04 am

well this has probably been said earlier, but just in case:

anapanassati is included in the satipatthanas

*sneaks out*
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org
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