New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by danieLion »

Zom wrote:Cool book, but again Ven. Thanissaro with his hidden-fire-eternal-mind idea :candle:
Still haven't seen anyone produce a source reference for this "hidden-fire-eternal-mind" accusation. If you repeat a lie often enough, and all that....
User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1348
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Polar Bear »

danieLion wrote:
Zom wrote:Cool book, but again Ven. Thanissaro with his hidden-fire-eternal-mind idea :candle:
Still haven't seen anyone produce a source reference for this "hidden-fire-eternal-mind" accusation. If you repeat a lie often enough, and all that....
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mind Like Fire Unbound

I don't really have a position on the book, but this is definitely where the accusation comes from. It's worth the read.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

Some previous discussions. Sadly the E-Sangha links are no longer available...

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=986" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 941#p76254" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p170295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by danieLion »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Zom wrote:Cool book, but again Ven. Thanissaro with his hidden-fire-eternal-mind idea :candle:
Still haven't seen anyone produce a source reference for this "hidden-fire-eternal-mind" accusation. If you repeat a lie often enough, and all that....
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mind Like Fire Unbound

I don't really have a position on the book, but this is definitely where the accusation comes from. It's worth the read.
I know MLFU is where most point to. I'd read it long before I heard the accusation, and have returned to it several times since looking for something to tie the accusation to, but to no avail. And in the context of his public body of work, it makes absolutely no sense. He's clearly aligned with the Buddha on all forms of eternalism. As far as I can tell it was a nasty rumor started by Ven. Dhammanando and perpetuated by anti-Thanissaro propagandists here at Dhammawheel.

Repeat a lie often enough and it eventually becomes a truth--and all that....
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote: As far as I can tell it was a nasty rumor started by Ven. Dhammanando and perpetuated by anti-Thanissaro propagandists here at Dhammawheel.

Repeat a lie often enough and it eventually becomes a truth--and all that....
Since Ven Thanissaro is quite clear that he disgrees with other interpretations in a number of areas, it is no surprise that a number of other interpreters disagree with him. It's a stretch to call that a conspiracy.

Ven Thanissaro makes some interesting points regarding how to make use the the "not-self" teachings. Some possible objections to his interpretation have been discussed in the threads I linked to above. Robert and others have given some thought to the matter recently in the thread:
NO self
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14502" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since this issue of not-self is central to the Buddha Dhamma, and grasping it wrongly could be problematical, it seems worthwhile to examine it carefully:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
12. "Though certain recluses and brahmans claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging... they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self. They do not understand one instance... therefore they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self.
:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote: As far as I can tell it was a nasty rumor started by Ven. Dhammanando and perpetuated by anti-Thanissaro propagandists here at Dhammawheel.

Repeat a lie often enough and it eventually becomes a truth--and all that....
I don't give a rat's patootie about Ven Thanisarro one way or another, but to call individuals who have carefully thought out disagreements with Ven T "propagandists" does not really do your argument any favors.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by danieLion »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote: As far as I can tell it was a nasty rumor started by Ven. Dhammanando and perpetuated by anti-Thanissaro propagandists here at Dhammawheel.

Repeat a lie often enough and it eventually becomes a truth--and all that....
Since Ven Thanissaro is quite clear that he disgrees with other interpretations in a number of areas, it is no surprise that a number of other interpreters disagree with him. It's a stretch to call that a conspiracy.

Ven Thanissaro makes some interesting points regarding how to make use the the "not-self" teachings. Some possible objections to his interpretation have been discussed in the threads I linked to above. Robert and others have given some thought to the matter recently in the thread:
NO self
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14502" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since this issue of not-self is central to the Buddha Dhamma, and grasping it wrongly could be problematical, it seems worthwhile to examine it carefully:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

12. "Though certain recluses and brahmans claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging... they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self. They do not understand one instance... therefore they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self.
:anjali:
Mike
Whether it's a conspiracy or not is irrelevant (IMO it's too out in the open to be such). What Thanissaro teaches about anatta is irrelevant (I don't study Thanissaro much anymore and this latest book is just a compilation of scattered teachings I've already digested or got indigestion from.). Whether or not Thanissaro actually told Dhammanando he believes in an eternal self is irrelevant. Whether the Buddha meant NO self or NOT self by anatta is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the Buddha never came out and plainly said the self does not exist, and the one time (we know of) someone asked him if the self exists he refused to answer. What is relevant is that the texts are full of locutions (personal pronouns, etc...) where the existence of the self is taken for granted.

It makes very little difference if one believes and acts as if one has no self or if one acts and believes that the aggregates are not self because in the context of the whole Buddha Dhamma either view has path utility.
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote: As far as I can tell it was a nasty rumor started by Ven. Dhammanando and perpetuated by anti-Thanissaro propagandists here at Dhammawheel.

Repeat a lie often enough and it eventually becomes a truth--and all that....
I don't give a rat's patootie about Ven Thanisarro one way or another, but to call individuals who have carefully thought out disagreements with Ven T "propagandists" does not really do your argument any favors.
You're right. However, I wasn't referring to the careful ones and apologize if what I said implied I lump them together with the reckless ones.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote: As far as I can tell it was a nasty rumor started by Ven. Dhammanando and perpetuated by anti-Thanissaro propagandists here at Dhammawheel.

Repeat a lie often enough and it eventually becomes a truth--and all that....
I don't give a rat's patootie about Ven Thanisarro one way or another, but to call individuals who have carefully thought out disagreements with Ven T "propagandists" does not really do your argument any favors.
You're right. However, I wasn't referring to the careful ones and apologize if what I said implied I lump them together with the reckless ones.
Sometimes all this squabbling is a pain in the tookus and I can appreciate your impatience with it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:I don't give a rat's patootie about Ven Thanisarro one way or another, but to call individuals who have carefully thought out disagreements with Ven T "propagandists" does not really do your argument any favors.
danieLion wrote:You're right. However, I wasn't referring to the careful ones and apologize if what I said implied I lump them together with the reckless ones.
tiltbillings wrote:Sometimes all this squabbling is a pain in the tookus and I can appreciate your impatience with it.
I'll always like you Tilt, no matter how impatient or squabbley either of us get, even towards each other.:heart:
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:I'll always like you Tilt, no matter how impatient or squabbley either of us get, even towards each other.:heart:
Thank you, but let's not go Brokeback Mountain here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

I grabbed this from another thread.. thought it might be nice to see again, with what Ven T. states sati is and isn't and how its practiced in some lineages.. :)

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Sal ... indfulness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The most Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw certainly does not seem to be suggesting to practice "whatever comes up"... not in the least! There seems to be some discernment and ardency involved in the practice...
Wrong Mindfulness (17)

Wrong mindfulness is the recollection of worldly matters and unwholesome deeds of the past. Some remember the unwholesome things they did when they were young, their companions, the places they visited, their happy days, and so forth. They may be likened to cows chewing the cud at night. These recollections are wrong mindfulness. However, it is not wrong mindfulness when one recognises the mistakes of the past, repents, and resolves not to repeat them in future. Such repentance is right mindfulness. Some monks think of their parents, relatives, native places, and the companions of their childhood. They recall how they spent their days as laymen. They think of what they have to do for so-and-so. All these recollections of the past are wrong mindfulness.

Laymen need not reject thoughts about their sons, daughters, etc., for such recollections are natural. However, while meditating, the meditator should note and reject them. As he sits in his retreat at the meditation centre, noteing the rising and falling of the abdomen or his other bodily movements, “sitting” , “touching”, etc., the meditator recalls what he did formerly, his sayings and doings in his youth, his friends, etc. These are wrong mindfulness and have to be noted and rejected. Some old men and women think of their grandchildren. While noteing their thoughts, they have mental visions of the children near them and they fancy they hear the children calling them. All these have to be noted and expelled. Some meditators felt compelled to return home because they could not overcome these unwholesome thoughts. A meditator’s spiritual effort is often thwarted by wrong mindfulness. In the final analysis a wrong recollection is not a distinct element of consciousness. It is a collection of unwholesome elements in the form of memories concerning worldly and unwholesome things of the past.

Right Mindfulness

Opposed to wrong mindfulness is right mindfulness, or recollection of wholesome things concerning alms-giving, morality, and mental development. One recalls how one did certain skilful things at some former time — wholesome deeds such as offering kathina robes and almsfood, keeping precepts on Uposatha days, etc. This recollection of wholesome things is right mindfulness. It is the kind of mindfulness that goes along with wholesome consciousness. It is involved in every arising of wholesome consciousness such as alms-giving, devotion before the Buddha image, doing service to one’s elders, observing the moral precepts, practising mental development, etc.

No wholesome consciousness is possible without right mindfulness. However, it is not apparent in ordinary wholesome consciousness. It is evident in the practice of mental development especially in the practice of insight meditation. Hence, in the Tipitaka the elaboration of right mindfulness is to be found in the discourse on the four foundations of mindfulness. It is right mindfulness to be attentive to all bodily activites and postures, to all pleasant and unpleasant feelings, to all states of consciousness and to all mental phenomena or mind-objects.

The meditators who practise insight meditation are cultivating right mindfulness. They note all psychophysical phenomena that arise from the six senses, focussing their attention on the arising and falling of the abdomen, sitting, bending, walking, and so forth. This is developing mindfulness of the body. Sometimes the meditator notes his feelings, “painful”, “depressed”, “joyful”, “satisfying”, etc. This is to develop mindfulness of feelings. At times, attention is focused on “thinking”, “intending”, etc. This is developing mindfulness of consciousness. Then there is mindfulness in regard to “seeing”, “hearing”, “desiring”, “being angry”, “being lazy”, “being distracted”, etc. This is developing mindfulness of mental objects. Every moment of mindfulness means developing mindfulness for insight, which is very gratifying. When this mindfulness develops and becomes perfect, mindfulness on the noble path makes the meditator aware of nibbāna. So you should practise until you attain this final stage of mindfulness.


I've also listened to a talk from Bhante G. It was about 2 hours long and it was also about right mindfulness.. And it was quite the opposite of what Ven T is accusing Bhante G of.


all be well

:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

Reflecting on the various posts here and elsewhere, and talks and instructions I've had in person, from books, and from the internet, I have this observation: It seems to me that perceived "errors" over issues like this one (emphasis, or not, on jhana is another example http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 49#p214928) often come from not properly distinguishing instructions to beginners, instructions to experienced practitioners, and technical discussions.

For someone new to meditation, instructions like: "Just observe what comes up without judgement" is very appropriate, and a skilful teacher will follow it up with other instructions when the student is ready.

It also occurred to me that in this passage (P65) Ven Thanissaro may well take some teachers too literally, overlooking their attempts at humour:
This point is illustrated, ironically, by a comment made by a teacher who
holds to the definition of mindfulness as awareness of the present: that
mindfulness is easy; it’s remembering to be mindful that’s hard. It would be
strange if the Buddha did not account for one of the hardest parts of mindfulness
practice in his instructions. To leave the role of memory unstated is to leave it
unclear in the mind of the practitioner, driven underground where it becomes
hidden from honest inquiry.
I've listened to talks by a number of teachers (Steve Armstrong for one) who will sometimes spend a whole hour discussing how mindfulness includes memory, but will also sometimes throw in the one-liner
"mindfulness is easy, remembering to do it is hard",
which I took to be a playful way of reminding ( :tongue:) the listeners that mindfulness does involve memory...

:anjali:
Mike
georgerussell
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:43 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by georgerussell »

Thanks for provide a useful information..... :)
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by danieLion »

Supplemental: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 28#p216928" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Post Reply