Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
theY
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by theY »

At risk.

Although, this case may be right on precept, but when you use the drug, you may lose your consciousness.

Consciousness losing is dangerous.

We should control our eating folow to Nutrition facts label to avoid hypertension, etc., except: accident case.

In thailand, we should eat rice 8-12 ladles per day, 6-10 spoons of fat-less meat, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrition_facts_label" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by tiltbillings »

Nurse to Patient: So, you are in some pain?
Patient: I can't sleep. The pain in my spine [from cancer metastasis] is excruciating.
N: Well, it is your karma, most likely. Somewhere along the line you acted rather badly and now you are paying the price. I would recommend that for your own good that you just bear it. You'll be better off in your next life for it.
P: What the hell is the matter with you. I AM HAVING PAIN!!! GIVE ME SOMEYTHING FOR IT!!!
N: I could do that, but I'd be doing you no favor whatsoever, and I certainly do not want to pay the price for that action.
P: YOU CRAZY SON OF A BITCH!!! GIVE ME SOMETHING NOW!!! THIS PAIN IS KILLING ME!!!!
N: If you insist, but I cannot take responsibility for your action here. You have a choice, after all, to burn off, as it were, some very bad karma.
P: Shut your godamned face and go get the pain medication. And you can be sure that you superiors will find out about this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Radman622
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Radman622 »

tiltbillings wrote:Nurse to Patient: So, you are in some pain?
Patient: I can't sleep. The pain in my spine [from cancer metastasis] is excruciating.
N: Well, it is your karma, most likely. Somewhere along the line you acted rather badly and now you are paying the price. I would recommend that for your own good that you just bear it. You'll be better off in your next life for it.
P: What the hell is the matter with you. I AM HAVING PAIN!!! GIVE ME SOMEYTHING FOR IT!!!
N: I could do that, but I'd be doing you no favor whatsoever, and I certainly do not want to pay the price for that action.
P: YOU CRAZY SON OF A BITCH!!! GIVE ME SOMETHING NOW!!! THIS PAIN IS KILLING ME!!!!
N: If you insist, but I cannot take responsibility for your action here. You have a choice, after all, to burn off, as it were, some very bad karma.
P: Shut your godamned face and go get the pain medication. And you can be sure that you superiors will find out about this.
It is an interesting thought, but as I said, I am not suggesting that someone should consider themselves obligated to refuse pain medication prescribed by a doctor when facing serious medical issues. If that were the case, you could extend the argument to accepting medicines and treatments at all, - (i.e. allowing the disease to "run its course" is just accepting your bad Karma.) As I pointed out before, the Buddha became sick and accepted medicines after his enlightenment.

In addition, to suggest that a healthcare professional would or should present the idea in this light to someone who may or may not have Buddhist ideals or ethics stretches the premise of the question a great deal since it was originally a question of personal choice and discipline, not of forcing others to adhere to your perspective and beliefs.

Additionally, one might argue that the doctor or nurse administering the pain medication as in the case of cancer metastasis, or another serious ailment, is doing so out of compassion and the desire to alleviate suffering, and therefore the action is at the least, Karmically neutral, if not good.

I am aware your example was in a somewhat tongue in cheek tone, but I don't think it was true to the original premise behind the question.

:namaste: -Conrad
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Annapurna
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Annapurna »

Conrad, you might be interested in the following anecdote from my Dad's practice as a country doc who did house calls.

Cancer pain can be excrutiating, and woe to the one who didn't have a doc back then who would give you enough morphine.
My father always did, and taught the spouses how to inject, so he wouldn't have to go there every day a few times.

One day, one of his colleagues harshly criticised him, that he'd be creating "morphine addicts", by allowing them to self apply as much as they needed (to be painfree, mind you)

My father replied:

"Who gives a damn if he's an addict, if he's dead in 2 weeks anyhow...???

I am sure you won't find him loitering near your morphine stocks, take my word for it! He wants to die in dignity, not a high."

This other doc denied enough morphine, for said reasons.

My Dad would get totally upset over him too.

He was one of the first who fought with hospitals over enough morphine for his patients if they had to be hospitalized.

People were so thankful. :smile:
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mikenz66
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Conrad,
Radman622 wrote: I am wondering if from a certain perspective, one might see this as trying to "dodge Karma" by diminishing or not experiencing the pain. If perhaps, you are trading the Karmic consequence of the headache or what have you for a different consequence, and in so doing, "delaying" bad Karma.
As far as I understand it, Theravada see no gain from "taking the consequences of kamma (karma)". There is no concept of "burning up bad kamma" --- that you can "trade" one bad consequence for another.

Some Mahayana teachers seem to suggest that one has to "burn up karma", or "purify karma" but I'm not sure what that means. You'd have to ask on dharmawheel.

:anjali:
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Annapurna
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Annapurna »

But you know the story of Angulimala, don't you, Mike?

And there the Buddha says to Angulimala, who is complaining that the villagers treat him badly, and throw things at him,l that this is good for Angulimala, as this way, in terms of his karma, even mentions hell...
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Annapurna
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Annapurna »

One more time, overlooked a mistake...

But you know the story of Angulimala, don't you, Mike?

And there the Buddha says to Angulimala, who is complaining that the villagers treat him badly, and throw things at him, that this is actually good for Angulimala, in terms of his karma, and he even mentions hell...
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by theY »

Annapurna wrote:But you know the story of Angulimala, don't you, Mike?

And there the Buddha says to Angulimala, who is complaining that the villagers treat him badly, and throw things at him,l that this is good for Angulimala, as this way, in terms of his karma, even mentions hell...
That is the individual way, that selected by Sabbaññutañāṇa, to practice himself, Angulimala, to enlightenment.

Angulimala case similar to unendurable patient, because he hadn't another way to enlighten.

If it is unnecessary for enlightenment, even arahanta may avoid some karma to observe attha of another person, such as mahāMogullāna's death case.

P.S. I think we should believe in the doctor, because we all have known that the doctor just give a drug to unendurable patient case.

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edit: unendurable -> unconsciousness
Last edited by theY on Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Annapurna »

I'm not sure what you mean with "unconscious patient..."

"unconscious" is someone who passed out, fainted, fell into a coma...

Do yiou mean the same?
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by theY »

^

Thank you.

I have edited.

I couldn't recall "unendurable" word when I began that reply.

English is very hard :embarassed:.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html
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Annapurna
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by Annapurna »

Hah! I know, I am struggling myself!

Thank you. You mean unendurable pain. There is such a thing...

In earlier days, some painful illnesses so consumed a patient's energy and will to live, that it produced a high suicide rate. Now, we have figured out some help...
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by danieLion »

Ther are many types of pain, and classifications constantly change. When the side effect/relief calculus comes out postive on the relief side, one resumes "normal" functioning; when it comes out on positive on the side effect side, one "gets high", or, worse dependent or addicted. Certain chronic pain conditions come out about even, give or take a few quantas (and depending also on the drug used).

For pain that can lead even arhants to suicide see:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p186393" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If Buddhism taught (and I don't believe it does except from cruel hearted, puritanical adherents) that physical ailments are due to kamma, then I want nothing to do with Buddhism. As a social scientist, I call that blaming the victim and as Buddhist religionsist a slippery slope to neglect of the needy.
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by theY »

^

1. Nearly all of vinaya rules, the Buddha except 4 persons form the rules-- any bhikkhu who is insane, possessed by spirits, delirious with pain, or the first offender(s). So, if bikkhu have blanket exemptions, layman must allowed it, too.
Blanket exemptions. In addition to bhikkhus who do not know they are being assaulted or do not give their consent when they do know, the Vibhaṅga states that there are four special categories of bhikkhus exempted from a penalty under this rule: any bhikkhu who is insane, possessed by spirits, delirious with pain, or the first offender(s) (in this case, Ven. Sudinna and the bhikkhu with the monkey) whose actions prompted the Buddha to formulate the rule. The Commentary defines as insane anyone who "goes about in an unseemly way, with deranged perceptions, having cast away all sense of shame and compunction, not knowing whether he has transgressed major or minor training rules." It recognizes this as a medical condition, which it blames on the bile. As for spirit possession, it says that this can happen either when spirits frighten one or when, by distracting one with sensory images, they insert their hands into one's heart by way of one's mouth (!). Whatever the cause, it notes that insane and possessed bhikkhus are exempt from penalties they incur only when their perceptions are deranged ("when their mindfulness is entirely forgotten and they don't know what fire, gold, excrement, and sandalwood are") and not from any they incur during their lucid moments. As for a bhikkhu delirious with pain, he is exempt from penalties he incurs only during periods when the pain is so great that he does not know what he is doing.

These four categories are exempted from penalties under nearly all of the rules, although the first offender for each rule is exempted only for the one time he acted in such a way as to provoke the Buddha into formulating the rule. I will only rarely mention these categories again, and — except where expressly stated otherwise — the reader should bear them in mind as exempt in every case.
Blanket exemptions 1st: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch04.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I confirm that article, because I had read that from original pali.

Please, sympathize with us, puritanical adherents, we don't have cruel heart. Only some people of us less knowledge more than they should know for this topic. However, they trying to follow the buddha, that's great.

I think, we can't completely call someone cruel heart, if we have not tried every right way, also it should be the best make sense way, to teach them.



2. Commentary wrote similar to 'channathera was not arahanta, or ariya while himself suicide.'

Why ?

-Arahants can't do anything without reasons considering--paññā, if that doings aren't general--because that actions had completely considered, before. And actually auicide is just a stupid action, that channathera had done it by akusalacitta.

-Auicide just success by dosa-citta--paṭighasaṅyojana, that all arahants, and anāgāmī had complete burned up.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html
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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Annapurna, your story about the doc reminds me of my aunt Linda's last days, and an ethical conflict between me and another family member.

Linda had a series of stokes and was in the hospital. At this time she was reasonably functional, and on my brithday (after consulting with the staff) I brought her a piece of cake and some pizza from my party. After the hospital food she cried out "I Loooove you!" and dug in. A few days later she had another series of stokes which left her unable to speak coherently and was transferred to hospice, waiting to die. My other aunt, Liz, who Aunt Linda didn't like very much, flew in to sit with her. Aunt Liz fretted over everything and had driven us all crazy when my mother was dying. It was sort of her job in the family; to come in, try to run things, make a mess of everything, and make everyone wish they were dead too.

Because of the strokes, Linda couldn't speak, but she was a nurse and had once worked with the deaf. By a fortunate fruiting of kamma, I'd studied Amslan, (American Sign Language) in high school for my language requirement, and at family get-togethers she and I used to silently mock other family members secretly in front of them. She was my favorite aunt because she was feisty, mischievous, rebellious, antisocial, told everyone to go to hell, lived life under her own terms--in short, we were just alike. So I could communicate with her even though she couldn't speak.

She had difficulty swallowing so the nurses had made the mistake of telling my Aunt Liz Linda couldn't be given liquids without the risk of aspirating them into her lungs. Notice this wasn't a commandment, but a disclaimer, basically medical personnel covering their rear ends. But Liz, literal minded and insensitive to nuance, wasn't allowing Linda to drink anything. When I got there Linda was pitching a fit. I asked Linda what she wanted, and she signed she wanted a cola. Linda and I had a silent conversation and I explained the risks, Linda had worked as a nurse and understood. There was nothing wrong with her mind. It was her body that was failing her. She also asked me, with embellishment and profanity (yes, there are quite expressive signs for profanity, some for which there are no English equivalents) to kill Liz for her, but I declined. I relayed Linda's wish (for the cola, not the homicide) and Liz refused. Linda howled. I went out to the hall and asked the nurse who repeated that Linda might aspirate the fluid. I asked what would happen, and the nurse said she could get pneumonia. I asked, "How long is she expected to live?" Nurse said, "Two days at the most," I said, "So what difference does it make? Let me talk to the doctor."

Doc told me he said Linda could have liquids with an eye dropper to reduce the risk of aspiration, but it would still probably happen. He also said Liz was scared to do it. I said, give me the damned dropper. I obtained an ice-cold cola and over Liz's objections, fed Linda small drops and you would have thought it was ambrosia. I knew probably half of it went into her lungs and hastened her death, but I took the responsibility.

My ex-wife (don't ask how she got involved, that's another convoluted melodrama for another day) later informed me Liz said I'd killed Linda, but who the hell cares. I made her last hours comfortable. Anyway, she fell asleep that night, never woke up, and passed away peacefully, with a low morphine dose from what I understand.

Not sure what the current theorists of kamma would speculate about these series of actions, and maybe I did hasten her death, but I know doing nothing would have tormented me forever. So as for these docs who walk near or even cross the borderline of euthanasia of dying patients who are near death anyway, I don't point any judgmental fingers. I'm only 52 but several friends near my age and even younger have discorporated, so any morning I wake up alive it's with a feeling of surprise. Death may come at us like a thief in the night or with plenty of advance notice, so how would we deal with it? Who knows? I don't. I only hope if I wind up helpless someone will have the sense and compassion to bring me a drink, but make mine a cognac, please. :toast:

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Re: Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

Post by greggorious »

I take anti depressants because a professional doctor and therapist want advise me too. To say that someone suffers from depression because they don't follow the dharma is ridiculous.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah
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