Is a UK student loan considered debt

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Alobha
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Alobha »

marcpiano wrote:Hi all,

Is a UK student loan (ie through the Student Loans Company rather than a private arrangement between an individual and a bank) considered a debt for the purposes of fulfilling the pre-requisites for ordination?

Its repayment is linked to earnings (so if you're unemployed, you don't pay it back until you gain employment) and it is automatically cleared after 25 years.

Thanks in advance!
Well. A debt is something that is given to one with the condition that one gives it back later. The debtee here is nice enough to wait until you have the means to give the money back, but still the idea that it is given back is there.

It would be blameworthy to ordain while having this kind of obligation and unknowledgable people may be inclined to think that monks use the monastery to escape their financial obligations and are thus unworthy of support and respect. Talk to the debtee about it. If it so happens that they're fine with your decision and agree that becoming a "spiritual worker" has it's very own worth too, they may give you a verbal confirmation that you're free to go?
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James the Giant
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by James the Giant »

If I knew a bhikkhu had a student loan, personally I would not consider him a properly ordained bhikkhu, despite the legal loopholes which enable him to not pay it back. It's against the "spirit" of the rule. I certainly would not respect him as much as a proper debt- and obligation-free monk.

In fact, that's what I'm doing this next twelve months, earning money to pay back my student loan. Working hard, 6 days a week, heaps of overtime, moved to a different country where the wages are better, etc.

(I know the OP may have been and gone, it was more than a year ago that he first posted. But since the thread was revived, well, I may as well chime in with my two cents.
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Mal
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

James the Giant wrote:If I knew a bhikkhu had a student loan, personally I would not consider him a properly ordained bhikkhu, despite the legal loopholes which enable him to not pay it back. It's against the "spirit" of the rule. I certainly would not respect him as much as a proper debt- and obligation-free monk.
In what way is it against the "spirit" of the rule?

The monk would only have an obligation if he earned a certain amount of money, otherwise he has no obligation.

If the student decided to ordain after, or near he end of, his studies, then I can't see any problem.

If the student planned to go to University before ordaining then that is more problematic. The student should then, perhaps, discuss his situation with all interested parties. If the student does this, and the "loan" provider decides to go ahead then, again, there is, surely, no problem.

If he was shown to, truly, be in debt could he even be a monk?
Buckwheat
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Buckwheat »

5heaps wrote:ignore your student loans, they're highly immoral.
This is a rather unwholesome sentiment.
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James the Giant
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by James the Giant »

Mal wrote: In what way is it against the "spirit" of the rule?
The monk would only have an obligation if he earned a certain amount of money, otherwise he has no obligation.
The point is that he is a debtor. He has a debt. He is a debtor and the rule is quite clear on that point:
"A debtor should not be given the Going-forth. Whoever should give it: an offense of wrong doing." — Mv.I.46.1

Whether he is obliged to pay it later, or when he reaches a certain level of income, he still has a debt and is therefore not eligible.
Mal wrote:If he was shown to, truly, be in debt could he even be a monk?
Yes, he remains an official bhikkhu. So I guess I was wrong there.
"Any bhikkhu who gives any of these applicants the Going-forth incurs a dukkaṭa. However, the applicant does count as having properly gone forth; if fully accepted he is properly accepted and need not be expelled." from the Buddhist Monastic Code http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch14.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mods, maybe this thread could be merged with the debts mega-thread over here? To save on people saying stuff that has already been said, as I probably just have.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=6795" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
Mal
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

James the Giant wrote:
Mal wrote: The point is that he is a debtor. He has a debt. He is a debtor and the rule is quite clear on that point:
"A debtor should not be given the Going-forth. Whoever should give it: an offense of wrong doing." — Mv.I.46.1

Whether he is obliged to pay it later, or when he reaches a certain level of income, he still has a debt and is therefore not eligible.
Have the ordination rules taken into account UK student loans?

The UK student loan only becomes a debt under special circumstances.

The dictionary definition of debt is "the state of owing money".

A bhikkhu can never be in "the state of owing money" on a UK student loan, because he is, and never will be, earning any money. Therefore, for him, the UK student loan is not a debt.

UK politicians are happy about "low earners" not paying back the loan - probably because (like me) they had a full student grant in their day!

The student loan should be thought of as a tax on high earning graduates, because, in practice, that is what it is.

If it "had to be" paid back "whatever" it would be an immoral tax that would have every right thinking person in the UK out on the streets campaigning against it(I certainly would). It would mean that students could not take low paid social service jobs, or become bhikkhus, or do charity work, or become housewives, or do anything else other than get a high paying job, because they would be slaves to paying back the student loan.
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James the Giant
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by James the Giant »

A loan is a loan. A debt is a debt. Anything else is playing word games, trying to weasel a way around the clear and simple rule.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
Mal
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

James the Giant wrote:A loan is a loan. A debt is a debt. Anything else is playing word games, trying to weasel a way around the clear and simple rule.
Blimey mate, you don't expect us poms to make anything clear and simple do you :)

I'm a UK tax payer and my money has been given to students as a "student loan". But I'm happy for students to go off and be monks and never repay me. It just isn't a loan!

If a friend loans me five pounds, I must pay him back, whatever. A UK student loan demands new moral reasoning.

Phew! As I'm not a monk with a student loan, or a monastic rule setter, I think I'll stop stressing myself with this, and hit the cushion...
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Buckwheat »

Yes, it is so unfair that one would have to repay their loans.... so unfair :cry:

Ask the senior monk under whom you would want to take dependence. His opinion is the only one that matters, because he will either say "yes" and you get to become a monk, or he will say "no" and you will have to find a job for a few years before you can become a monk. One can still practice meditation and find a job near the monastery to keep close contact with the monks. It wouldn't be the end of the world, so let it go, brother. Be honest with the senior monk and accept his decision.

BTW - you could almost certainly become a monk in many non-Theravadan traditions.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Mal
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

Buckwheat wrote:
Ask the senior monk under whom you would want to take dependence. His opinion is the only one that matters, because he will either say "yes" and you get to become a monk, or he will say "no" and you will have to find a job for a few years before you can become a monk.
Or you can find another senior monk.
Buckwheat
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

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Mal wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:
Ask the senior monk under whom you would want to take dependence. His opinion is the only one that matters, because he will either say "yes" and you get to become a monk, or he will say "no" and you will have to find a job for a few years before you can become a monk.
Or you can find another senior monk.
Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey. :anjali:
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Mal
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

Buckwheat wrote: Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey. :anjali:
Who are you to second guess a senior monk?
Mal
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

Mal wrote:
Buckwheat wrote: Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey. :anjali:
Who are you to second guess all senior monks in the Theravada tradition?
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Cittasanto »

The Buddha just so happened to of laid down this rule
VinayaMV1.33 wrote:'Bhikkhus, no debtor should be accepted into the sangha. Whoever does accept them into the sangha is guilty of a dukkata offence.'
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Buckwheat
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Buckwheat »

Mal wrote:
Mal wrote:
Buckwheat wrote: Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey. :anjali:
Who are you to second guess all senior monks in the Theravada tradition?
Who am I second guessing? I am only suggesting you effort to find a senior monk to ordain a person with debt will be futile, a wild goose chase. However, I wish you luck on your journey.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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