Sotapanna and five precepts

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Zom
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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Post by Zom »

there are other situations where someone can kill which, such as self defence, where the full precept would not be broken.
Hm. I don't think so. Even self-defence resulting in killing is full-killing-kamma. You kill because of either greed or hatred or delusion. Other being is there. Intention to kill is there (unless, for example, your murderer won't somehow kill himself while attacking you).
you have to remember that the precepts being talked about are not the major ones but the minor ones
I was talking about panca-sila precepts. They can't be minor ,)
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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Post by Cittasanto »

Zom wrote:
there are other situations where someone can kill which, such as self defence, where the full precept would not be broken.
Hm. I don't think so. Even self-defence resulting in killing is full-killing-kamma. You kill because of either greed or hatred or delusion. Other being is there. Intention to kill is there (unless, for example, your murderer won't somehow kill himself while attacking you).
you do know the precept is about murder, a deliberate act.
you have to remember that the precepts being talked about are not the major ones but the minor ones
I was talking about panca-sila precepts. They can't be minor ,)
I thought I had corrected that error! I will correct it now, and please respond to that.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Post by DNS »

Cittasanto wrote: And The Buddha never Lied, Nanda let the buddha off of the promise when he had gained enlightenment as the sutta clearly states with "Lord, about the Blessed One's being my guarantee for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs, I hereby release the Blessed One from that promise." it does not show the Buddha lied, it shows the Buddha was released from a promise before it was fulfilled.
But what if Nanda didn't release the Buddha from that promise? Would the Buddha have fulfilled that promise? Does he have the power to control someone's kamma and destiny in such a way? Or what is it a skilful means statement, knowing that Nanda would get enlightened and not care about the nymphs?

I am leaning toward the latter. (Which would make it an un-true statement, but skillfully done with a wholesome intention.)
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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Post by daverupa »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: And The Buddha never Lied, Nanda let the buddha off of the promise when he had gained enlightenment as the sutta clearly states with "Lord, about the Blessed One's being my guarantee for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs, I hereby release the Blessed One from that promise." it does not show the Buddha lied, it shows the Buddha was released from a promise before it was fulfilled.
But what if Nanda didn't release the Buddha from that promise? Would the Buddha have fulfilled that promise? Does he have the power to control someone's kamma and destiny in such a way? Or what is it a skilful means statement, knowing that Nanda would get enlightened and not care about the nymphs?

I am leaning toward the latter. (Which would make it an un-true statement, but skillfully done with a wholesome intention.)
The problem is as follows:
MN 58 wrote:[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
There is no combination thus: "unfactual + beneficial". The possibility is not even entertained.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi David,
I am leaning towards not second guessing the Buddha.
We don't know what would of happened, so saying there was a lie, or saying it wouldn't of happened and was only a skilful means is only adding onto what is there, the fact is we don't know about that.
I agree it was a skilful means of persuading him to practice, but more than that is unsupported guesswork and addition, because we do not know the range of the Tathagatas power, but we do know Nanda was comparable in beauty to the Buddha and mistaken for the Buddha at least once, if memory serves, and being enlightened quite a catch for any dove footed nymph, if you ask me so would the Buddha of had to do anything? not really, but I don't actually know, it is just unsupported speculation & addition.
and the Buddha wouldn't lie (AN 9.7) so saying something which is non-factual would be covered there as it is a statement designed to mislead someone about something, whether in a positive direction or not.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Post by Alex123 »

PS> It seems no one knows a sutta about the "impossibility" to kill, steal, ect. So it seems, Ven. Sayadaw took it from some commentaries or perhaps it is his personal opinion.
Sutta is MN115

It is impossible, that one come to right view should deprive the life of his mother. It is possible that an ordinary person should deprive the life of his mother. It is impossible, that one come to right view should deprive the life of his father. It is possible that an ordinary person should deprive the life of his father. It is impossible, that one come to right view, should cause hurt to the body of the Thus Gone One with a defiled mind. It is possible that an ordinary person should cause hurt to the body of the Thus Gone One, with a defiled mind. It is impossible that one come to right view should cause a breach in the Community. It is possible that an ordinary person should cause a breach in the Community. It is impossible that one come to right view should go to another Teacher. It is possible that an ordinary person should go to another Teacher.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... uka-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The impossibilities for "one come to right view" are:
Consider anything as nicca, sukha, atta.
Go to another teacher.
Kill mother, father, with defiled mind hurt "Thus Gone One"
Commit Schism.
Last edited by Alex123 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Post by santa100 »

Actually I don't think the Buddha lied to Nanda. There're many different fruits attainable depended on the different stages of one's training provided that one does start the training. Through training, if one's gained good enough kamma that allows being reborn in one of the upper heavens within the Desire realm, then sure, there'd be 500 dove-footed nymphs waiting there for him. The Buddha, out of compassion for Nanda, presented the "lower" fruit since He knew Nanda still had lots of clinging. Had He presented the highest fruit of Total Un-Binding, Nanda would never listened. This was extremely skillful of the Buddha. It wasn't a lie though..
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Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by SarathW »

According to Narada’s Manual of Abhidhamma (page 42) it says:

"A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts)."

Is it a necessary prerequisite that Sotapanna/Chula Sorapanna person strictly observing five precepts? What will happen to a Sotapanna person if he break one of the precepts?

Link: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

It is generally considered a rule of thumb that a Sotapanna will not break the five precepts because he or she does not have the defilements capable of causing any actions in violation of those precepts - however, the sutta support on this is not necessarily rock solid, in my opinion. You'll get a bunch of different answers depending on who you ask.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by santa100 »

According to MN 48. ( http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Kosambiya_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), when a noble disciple is endowed with these seven qualities, he is ready to realize the fruit of stream entry:

"The bhikkhu knows, I haven’t undispelled hindrances on account of which my mind would not see it, as it really is.These things are thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for realising the truth. This is the first noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary...

...Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly pull away from it. In the same manner when he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes amends for future restrain. This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view. This is the fourth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Mr Man »

Why not become a Sotapanna and find out?
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by SarathW »

Mr Man wrote:Why not become a Sotapanna and find out?
Thank you Mr Man. I have this glass of muddy water in my hand. It is not easy to find out whether it is 25% cleared or 50% cleared or 75% cleared or 100% cleared or anything in between. The only comfort I have is that I keep it well balanced and still and I know that it will be fully cleared one day. Thank you again for your comment and interest.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by SarathW »

Thank you lonesome and Santa. Your advise and links were very helpful. I am glad that I do not have to ask this question again and I can help someone else with more confidence in this regard now.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by SarathW »

I found further clarification to my question in the following link.

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... tml#Vision" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it says about the first stage of purification as follows:
Purification of conduct means here, in the case of male and female devotees (upāsakas and upāsikās), the acceptance of the precepts, and the proper guarding and protecting of their observance — whether it be the Five Precepts, the Eight Uposatha Precepts, or the Ten Precepts
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by reflection »

The precepts are nescessary for developing the path and will become second nature along the way. :anjali:
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