Sotapanna and five precepts

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Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:14 am

According to Narada’s Manual of Abhidhamma (page 42) it says:

"A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts)."

Is it a necessary prerequisite that Sotapanna/Chula Sorapanna person strictly observing five precepts? What will happen to a Sotapanna person if he break one of the precepts?

Link: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:30 am

It is generally considered a rule of thumb that a Sotapanna will not break the five precepts because he or she does not have the defilements capable of causing any actions in violation of those precepts - however, the sutta support on this is not necessarily rock solid, in my opinion. You'll get a bunch of different answers depending on who you ask.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby santa100 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:19 pm

According to MN 48. ( http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Kosambiya_Sutta ), when a noble disciple is endowed with these seven qualities, he is ready to realize the fruit of stream entry:

"The bhikkhu knows, I haven’t undispelled hindrances on account of which my mind would not see it, as it really is.These things are thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for realising the truth. This is the first noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary...

...Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly pull away from it. In the same manner when he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes amends for future restrain. This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view. This is the fourth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Mr Man » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:16 pm

Why not become a Sotapanna and find out?
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:03 pm

Mr Man wrote:Why not become a Sotapanna and find out?


Thank you Mr Man. I have this glass of muddy water in my hand. It is not easy to find out whether it is 25% cleared or 50% cleared or 75% cleared or 100% cleared or anything in between. The only comfort I have is that I keep it well balanced and still and I know that it will be fully cleared one day. Thank you again for your comment and interest.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:56 pm

Thank you lonesome and Santa. Your advise and links were very helpful. I am glad that I do not have to ask this question again and I can help someone else with more confidence in this regard now.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:43 pm

I found further clarification to my question in the following link.

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... tml#Vision

it says about the first stage of purification as follows:
Purification of conduct means here, in the case of male and female devotees (upāsakas and upāsikās), the acceptance of the precepts, and the proper guarding and protecting of their observance — whether it be the Five Precepts, the Eight Uposatha Precepts, or the Ten Precepts
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby reflection » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:43 am

The precepts are nescessary for developing the path and will become second nature along the way. :anjali:
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:25 pm

I found further information regarding this subject in the attached link. I hope that may some help for others looking answers to a similar question.

http://static.sirimangalo.org//mahasi/A ... 0Sutta.htm
The extract from this Sutta as follows.

GENUINE SOTAPAN

It is important to bear in mind that for the sincere yogī conformity to the moral precepts is to be natural and spontaneous and does not require deliberate effort or a sense of self-imposed duty. It implies moral purity rooted in freedom from evil desire and violent, evil passions. This is not to say that initially there is no need for the yogī to exercise self-restraint to make himself morally pure. What we mean is that he should aim at moral purity that is invulnerable to any violent desire to commit moral transgressions. Therefore he needs to examine himself to see whether he has achieved such kind of moral purity. Otherwise he may run the risk of being deluded like one of my former disciples.

Once a lay man came to me. He was not an ordinary person but an educated and well-informed Buddhist. He said that after he had meditated for several times he was declared to be a sotāpan by his teacher. In the Piṭaka there is no mention, no instance of such a verdict being given by Arahat other than the Buddha. We always consider it inadvisable to make such kind of judgment. On the other hand we only give sermons on the stages of insight-knowledge that will provide the basis for assessing one' spiritual progress.

Nevertheless, because of his strong faith in his teacher, the man believed himself to be a sotāpan and observed the five precept strictly. Then one day he reported his religious experience to an elderly monk. The 90-year old monk still living and well versed in the Piṭaka is intimate with me. The man told the old monk about his vision of the elements and phenomena evaporating during his practice of meditation and about the verdict of his teacher.

Then the learned Sayādaw said that he was talking nonsense and that there was nothing to warrant his understanding of the Dhamma, let a lone his claim to be a sotāpan Ariya. The disillusioned man told me that after his interview with the outspoken Sayādaw, he no longer cared much for the strict observance of the five precepts. I advised him not to do like that but to continue to lead a good moral life, whatever other people said about him. It is necessary for the yogī to avoid becoming a self-styled sotāpan like that lay disciple.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:14 am

Greetings Sarath,

SarathW wrote:Is it a necessary prerequisite that Sotapanna/Chula Sorapanna person strictly observing five precepts? What will happen to a Sotapanna person if he break one of the precepts?

Well, Channa the arahant didn't... and what became of him? Arahantship.

Consider also the following words from Nanavira Thera...

Source: (http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50 )
Nanavira Thera wrote:Why am I glad that you are shocked to learn that a sekha bhikkhu can be fond of talk (and worse)? Because it gives me the opportunity of insisting that unless you bring the sekha down to earth the Buddha's Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to put the sotāpanna on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that it is your duty to become sotāpanna yourself (or at least to make the attempt) here and now in this very life; for you will simply take it as axiomatic that you cannot succeed. As Kierkegaard puts it,

Whatever is great in the sphere of the universally human must...not be communicated as a subject for admiration, but as an ethical requirement. (CUP, p. 320)


This means that you are not required to admire a sotāpanna, but to become one.

Let me illustrate the matter in a different way. It is possible that you were living as a young man in India in the Buddha's day, and that at the same time there was a young girl of a neighbouring family who had been with her parents to hear the Buddha teach. And she may have understood the Buddha's Teaching and become sotāpanna. And perhaps she might have been given to you in marriage. And you, being a puthujjana, would not know that she was a sekha (for remember, a puthujjana cannot recognize an ariya—an ariya can only be recognized by another ariya). But even though she was sotāpanna she might have loved you, and loved being loved by you, and loved bearing your children, and enjoyed dressing beautifully and entertaining guests and going to entertainments, and even been pleased at the admiration of other men. And she might have taken a pride in working to keep your house in order, and enjoyed talking to you and to your friends and relations. But every now and again, when she was alone, she would have called to mind her sotāpanna's understanding of the true nature of things and been secretly ashamed and disgusted at still finding delight in all these satisfactions (which she would see as essentially dukkha). But, being busy with her duties and pleasures as your wife, she would not have had the time to do much practice, and would have had to be content with the thought that she had only seven more human births to endure at the most.

Now suppose that one day you had gone to see the Buddha, and he had told you that your wife was not a puthujjana like yourself, but an ariya, one of the Elect—would you have been content to put her out of reach on a pedestal (where she would, no doubt, have been very unhappy), saying to yourself 'Ah, that is too difficult an attainment for a humble person like me'? Or would not rather your masculine pride have been stung to the quick and be smarting at the thought that your devoted and submissive wife should be 'one advanced in the Dhamma', while you, the lord and master of the household, remained an ordinary person? I think, perhaps, that you would have made an effort at least to become the equal of your wife.


Further reading:

If a stream-winner...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4241

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Sambodhi in Oz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:03 pm

Don't remember the sutta but what I understand is that the things which a sotapanna can't do are :

1. Patricide
2. Matricide
3. Hurting a Buddha ( kill nobody can)
4. Cause schism in Buddha's order
5. Kill an Arhant

This are probably the worst crimes which a sotapanna can't do. On other things they may commit but will immediately recognise the mistake and make amends.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby xtracorrupt » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:20 am

SarathW wrote:According to Narada’s Manual of Abhidhamma (page 42) it says:

"A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts)."

Is it a necessary prerequisite that Sotapanna/Chula Sorapanna person strictly observing five precepts? What will happen to a Sotapanna person if he break one of the precepts?

Link: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf


Hi SarathW,

remember the five percepts are more of guidelines then rules, they are used to help guide people to have good will, and rich intention, etc

Remember that there is nothing you must actually do, and you are not required to be attached to these percepts, however most would see being attached to these percepts as beautiful because it promotes good will

It also seems In my perspective, that you might have possibly accomplished becoming a stream enterer, in this case I would advise questioning the next fetters that you should abandon on your journey. Why do i need to feel sensual pain? Is sensual suffering a delusion in order to try and fool myself into thinking i must continue living in this world? What's more important then my happiness and the happiness of other people? what make's my happiness more important then another person's happiness? What use does leaving a reputation have unless it brings happiness ?

also a sotapanna does not have to be reborn 7 times in order to attain nirvana, any sentient being can attain nirvana in any life, it all depends on the will

Try and learn with good intentions, try and awaken yourself so you can be free of suffering and then help other people be free of suffering


Already you should be applauded for your will to understandment

If you have any questions, please do not be afraid to ask

:namaste:
theres is no need for needing
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:56 am

xtracorrupt wrote:If you have any questions, please do not be afraid to ask

You? You've got to be joking!
You'd be better off keeping silent, learning about and practicing Dhamma - that is if you're actually interested in coming out of your delusional thinking.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:00 am

Ben wrote:
xtracorrupt wrote:If you have any questions, please do not be afraid to ask

You? You've got to be joking!
You'd be better off keeping silent, learning about and practicing Dhamma - that is if you're actually interested in coming out of your delusional thinking.

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby xtracorrupt » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:19 pm

Ben wrote:
xtracorrupt wrote:If you have any questions, please do not be afraid to ask

You? You've got to be joking!
You'd be better off keeping silent, learning about and practicing Dhamma - that is if you're actually interested in coming out of your delusional thinking.


Why , what harm would me spreading information cause? Maby it could cause misunderstandment and causing delusion but I think the possible understandment hold outweighs this

Also its pleasing to see that you are attached to the dhamma, this is a good sign of good intention :clap:

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:56 am

Most of the text I read describe the Sotapanna as the person who eradicated first three fetters.
Interestingly the page 320 of attached link says that Sotapanna also a person who has abandons unwholesome states such as greed, hatred, and delusion strong enough to lead to the plane of misery.
So this is a confirmation that a Sotapanna is a person who observes five precepts.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/printguna.pdf
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby santa100 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:32 pm

AN 9.12 seems to confirm it:

...Again, Sariputta, consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom-by destroying the three fetters, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most...
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:44 am

"For the stream-enterer is called “perfected in the kinds of virtue”;
and likewise the once-returner. But the non-returner is called “perfected in concentration.”
And the Arahant is called “perfected in understanding”

Page:10
http://bps.lk/olib/bp/bp207h.pdf
:reading:
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:44 am

I found some info here:

For the eradication of the remaining seven Fetters a Sotàpanna
is reborn seven times at most. He gains implicit confidence
in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saïgha. He
would not for any reason violate any of the five precepts.He is not subject to states of woe as he is destined for
Enlightenment.

:reading:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby daverupa » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:18 pm

SarathW wrote:I found some info here:

For the eradication of the remaining seven Fetters a Sotàpanna
is reborn seven times at most. He gains implicit confidence
in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saïgha. He
would not for any reason violate any of the five precepts.He is not subject to states of woe as he is destined for
Enlightenment.

:reading:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf


If we read MN 115, what a sotapanna cannot do looks a little different. They will always report a fault, but they are not immune to faults, even in terms of some of the five precepts.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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