Don't like to meditate

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
nobody12345
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby nobody12345 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:35 am


nobody12345
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby nobody12345 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:47 am


RatherSkeptic
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby RatherSkeptic » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:14 am


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DAWN
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby DAWN » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:38 am

Meditation is not about get things, meditation is about let them go (c) Ajahn Chaa

Be happy that you have nothing, it's better that have something and be attached to it.
If someone serch something to be attached on it, the one can putt a collar on the neck and attch it to something wery weigh, it's faster and better than meditation, visible right here and now.

With metta. :meditate:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

Maarten
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby Maarten » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:56 am

If you have to exert all your willpower to sit on that cushion, if it is a painful horrible experience and all you want to do is just run away then aren't you torturing yourself? Isn't that one of the extremes to be avoided on the middle way?

If it is such a horrible experience and you are getting nowhere then you are probably doing something wrong and should try to make some adjustments.

“Upali, the qualities of which you may know, ‘These qualities do not lead to
utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to
self-awakening, nor to Unbinding’: You may categorically hold, ‘This is not the
Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher’s instruction.’
“As for the qualities of which you may know, ‘These qualities lead to utter
disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-
awakening, to Unbinding’: You may categorically hold, ‘This is the Dhamma,
this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’”
AN 7:80

Digity
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby Digity » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:59 pm


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reflection
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby reflection » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:17 pm


nobody12345
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby nobody12345 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:40 pm

@RatherSkeptic, I think you misunderstood my post.
I did not say that I have to clench my teeth and fists for 2 years and half day in and day out.
I did say 'time to time' that I have to do that in order to sit and meditate.
Overall, my meditation practice has been fruitful.
And I do experience nice things generated by meditation time to time as well.
However, my point is, the ultimate aim of practice is to see the things as they really are.
Blissed out status of the awareness with wonderful deep concentration is nice and dandy but even if one is not getting such joys, still meditation is not a waste of time.
The dry path, which is dreaded by many is not so terrible if one's aim is not about having temporary fix (blissed out) but to see the things as they really are, and as a consequence, to break out from the cosmic jail, Samsara.
And I can relate to your frustration.
But hey, at least we have a map to break out from the jail and think about all the inmates that have no clue or no long term hope while indulging endlessly in evanescent physical pleasures.
Anyway, I wish you the best for your practice.
(For a full disclosure, I experience more pain and suffering than blissed out moments but after all, we are trying to break out from the cosmic jail, Samsara so things won't be easy and that's natural. Dhamma is going against the stream of entire Samsara and if that was not the case, meditation/ jail break (from Samsara) won't be so difficult. But the funny thing about difficulties that relate to meditation is, whenever that period passed away, I found my practice progressed than before. It always goes like that for me. A certain period of difficulties and sufferings, then after the period, I found my meditation improved than before. And I am confident that even if you are frustrated about meditation, keep pursuing with perseverance is infinitely more beneficial to you than giving up meditation and follow the stream of Samsara.)

RatherSkeptic
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby RatherSkeptic » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:02 pm


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reflection
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby reflection » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:14 pm

Hi,

The mind will hold itself, it will get itself back if it is contented where it is. So if you are not at ease and pick up the breath, it won't really work. You'll try to force, but contrary to other things in life, meditation is not learned by forcing and repeating. It learns itself in a way.

If you have some initial peace and contentment, following the breath will pretty much happen all by itself. You don't have to do anything, because everything 'you' do is disturbing the mind from a natural process. That's why letting go is backing up, it is not getting involved, it's 'you' disappearing. Perhaps just a slight nudge of the mind onto the breath is needed, that's the one percent I left open, but even that is not always needed.

So meditation is letting it all go, let thought go, let control go, let the will go, just be contented with whatever arises. Then it will be pleasant, then it'll begin to have some fruits and will become easy to maintain. It's a bit like taking a bath. You don't swim around in it, disturb the water etc. You just sit in the bath and enjoy your time. Let the water settle.

So perhaps next time you could try to develop some initial peace by just being with the present moment. Forget about the breath. If time is ready, the mind will pick it up automatically. Why? Because it becomes the coarsest thing to notice, so it's only natural.

I wish you the best.

With metta,
Reflection

RatherSkeptic
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby RatherSkeptic » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:00 pm

So you're saying that focusing on the breath is wrong - in samadhi? Because the mind would turn to the breath by itself? Sorry, but that's not just very unconvincing, it's also a direct contradiction to what I've read about Samatha meditation.

For instance, I've read "beyond mindfulness in plain english" by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana. I am happy to show you parts of this book here, from google books:

Would you (all here) mind if you scroll down to page 72 on that link? Thank you.

Now, at the begin of the 3rd paragraph on this page, it is clearly said: First, fasten the mind on the breath and hold it there. That word, fasten! Like a seatbelt. Sounds to me if I really need to work hard to focus on the breath, thus forcing my mind, that's how I read this.

I know there are more examples from this book, but they can't be read on this link. For example, in chapter 9 "access concentration", he speaks about noting the breath in each of it's stages, the beginning, the middle, the end... So as I understand it, the meditator really HAS to work hard not to miss any stage of the breath, and he or she needs to be concentrated all the time, just like during a math exam. Which is why they've translated Samadhi into concentration. At least the translation makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

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reflection
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby reflection » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:49 pm

Hi,

I don't know V. Gunaratana's book really well, so I won't go into that. You'll have to ask him what he means. But for now I would point to his analogy of the muddy cup on the next page. What do you do to settle the mud? You put down the cup. This means you back up, you let go, you don't disturb the water; very similar to the bathtub I gave before (I'm quite sure the still water analogy comes from suttas originally). And so, you don't get 'doing' involved.

So that aside, I can respond in more detail to what I said. I'm not saying focussing is wrong, I'm saying willfully focussing is not useful, because doing things with willpower is not creating peace. You can apply the mind to the breath, it doesn't always have to go automatically. However, in the end the mind will have to stick by itself to really get settled, whether you applied it or it went by itself. If it doesn't like to stay there by itself, it won't. You can force it back for 100 years, but it just won't stay if you treat the mind like that. Perhaps it will stay for a few minutes or even longer, but it won't enjoy it and I don't see meditation progressing then. It'll be more like a struggle, which meditation isn't really supposed to be as far as I'm concerned. It's about being kind to yourself and about being happy.

So instead of trying to go against this idea, why not try it? As I understand the method you applied so far didn't really help, so at least you could give an alternative a go. By focussing on the present moment, see if the mind will go to the breath automatically. I can see how it may sound unconvincing, but it really does happen and not just to me, so I hope you can experience it in some way or the other. Otherwise there is still plenty of peace before going onto the breath.

Do please note that the difference 'you' and 'the mind' in all the above is really artificial, which could give rise to some confusion between different explanations of different people. In reality there is no such a 'you', so if a teacher says 'you' do something in meditation, that's actually the mind doing it. But initially I think it can be useful to make a distinction, especially if you get a lot of stress out of meditation, that means you are trying too hard.

With metta,
Reflection

Maarten
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby Maarten » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:07 pm


RatherSkeptic
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby RatherSkeptic » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:38 am

We'll let me try it again by posting a simple question:

Why would the mind EVER bother to focus on the meditation object (all by itself, without my doing), if daydreaming and reverie are obviously so much more colourful and exciting?

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reflection
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby reflection » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:02 pm


socoguy78
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby socoguy78 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:41 pm

It sounds like you have a case of restlessness and aversion. Aversion is a form of atatchment because not wanting to meditate comes up and you try to control and push it away it for what ever reason... Trying to control is atatchment. The truth is you are wanting to meditate and for some reason you are trying to push it away by trying to control it. How are you with giving in your life? Do you think kind thoughts about people, ex. wish then happiness, do good deeds with out expecting anything in return? Do your physical actions show you are giving? Do you follow the first 5 precepts?
Much metta,
zach

Digity
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby Digity » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:43 pm


Yana
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby Yana » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:05 pm

hi everyone,

I actually enjoy meditating even though i rarely meditate more than twenty minutes but i get lot of benefit from it.For me personally,I can see a drastic change when i meditate and when i don't.Which strengthens my will to practice even more.

When i meditate i don't try to force my breath or control my breath in anyway.I don't try to feel peace or force peace.I just breath.And be aware of the breath.That's all..sometimes it's heavy,sometimes it's short,sometimes it's not comfortable..i am just naturally being aware of it. even if i am agitated i am naturally aware of the agitation.And without fail the more aware i am of my current state the more relaxed i'll feel.This has always happened.And i have noted it.I think it's good to keep a journal because you can write down what you encounter through personal experience and you know what works for you.

If you don't like to meditate try very short ones like i did..i started meditating for 1 min you can do that for a whole week/or the next day you can add another minute..then the next another minute..i know it's slow..but better slow and steady than nothing..before you know it you will have trained yourself to meditate for a good half an hour or one hour.I read somewhere it takes 21 days to change a habit.So if you train yourself to do something for long periods of time,sitting down for meditation will be a piece of cake.It will be like second nature to you.

So don't give up.. :anjali:
Life is preparing for Death

Digity
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby Digity » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:39 am

I'm doing 20 minutes now in the morning. I'm also experimenting with doing an additional 5 minutes after a break where I focus on a particular emotion that's bother me or something to that nature. I find when I meditate on something that's bothering me it helps me see it in a clear light and I often can work through issues that way.

JSearch
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Re: Don't like to meditate

Postby JSearch » Tue May 14, 2013 10:52 pm

Sorry for posting on such an old thread, but I found it quite relevant to what I wanted to discuss. I'll try and keep it short!

Before I go on I'm not a Buddhist I was brought up RC but I'm not very religious and I have always found any form of structured religion (or call it what you will) does not agree with me at all, that said I do have a lot of respect for Buddhism and the Christian faiths etc. both imo have similar messages on enlightenment etc. although I would say that Christianity has somewhat misunderstood the real meaning of the new testament.

Anyway back to the subject at hand, I was first introduced to meditation of sorts in my early teens, it began with auto-genics, focusing on breath, mantra as well as other methods, I can only say I found the whole experience extremely frustrating then it simply made my mind go wild and anxious. I dropped the whole subject.

Around a decade later, I was experiencing an incredible episode of mental depression and suffering, it became so bad that I simply could not take it anymore I simply desired peace and to rest, after around 30 minutes in bed I could not take any thoughts any longer and asked myself could I not just relax? I eventually entered a stage of incredible peace and silence, it is enough to say I experienced what you call "Samadhi" an experience that I can only say was like the grace of God, an awakening almost like a spell had been removed from me.

After this experience my next 2-3 months were the most incredible of my life, but I seemed to eventually slip back into my old self. This was 5 years ago now.

So then I began searching for the answers, what was this experience? Eventually I found Meditation again & began reading many books on the subject.

Anyway to cut a long story short, I have experienced what you call "Samadhi" once without any sort of formal meditation or awareness of it etc. However I now find that like when I was a teenager trying to meditate is very destructive, I leave mentally exhausted, a racing mind, anxious and with a racing heart, this is when I try mantra, focusing on breath or anything else proscribed in meditation books etc.

Worse still since I have read these books I am not even able to try to relax because as soon as I do, my mind comes in with "ah trying to meditate" and all the meditation jargon I've read in the books floods into my mind, it's almost like I've educated the enemy!

Anyway this is my experience, meditation doesn't really agree with me and I've tried for several years now!


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