Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:57 am

I guess it's somehow a challenge to see those wrong livelihood also amoung todays usuall practices. While in SEAsia, such wrong livelihoods are very common and still present, there are also new kinds which how ever fit to the old if we do not take it to literary.

21 Kinds of Wrong Livelihood for Bhikkhus & Animal Arts (Tiracchāna Vijjā)

wenty-one Kinds of Wrong Livelihood for Bhikkhus
1.Medical practice (vejjakammaṃ karoti)
2.Acting as a messenger (dūtakammaṃ karoti)
3.Doing things at the behest of laymen (pahiṇakammaṃ karoti)
4.Lancing boils (gaṇḍaṃ phāleti)
5.Giving oil for medical application (arumakkhaṇaṃ deti)
6.Giving emetics (uddhaṃ virecanaṃ deti)
7.Giving purgatives (adho virecanaṃ deti)
8. Preparing oil for nosetreatment (natthutelaṃ pacati)
9.Preparing oil for medicine (pivanatelaṃ pacati)
10.Presenting bamboos (veḷudānaṃ deti)
11.Presenting leaves (pattadānaṃ deti)
12. Presenting flowers (pupphadānaṃ deti)
13.Presenting Fruits (phaladānaṃ deti)
14.Presenting soapclay (sinānadānaṃ deti)
15.Presenting toothsticks (dantakaṭṭhadānaṃ deti)
16.Presenting water for washing the face (mukhodakadānaṃ deti)
17.Presenting talcum powder (cuṇṇamattikadānaṃ deti)
18. Using flattering speech (cāṭukamyaṃ karoti)
19.Acting like halfcooked bean soup, i.e.,speaking halftruths (muggasūpiyaṃ karoti)
20.Fondling children (pāribattaṃ karoti)
21.Running errands (jaṅghapesaniyaṃ karoti)


Animal Arts
(Tiracchāna Vijjā)

They can be summarised as follows:

1.Palmistry, divination by signs, portents, dreams, or body marks.
2.Knowledge of animal behaviour.
3.Judging the value of gems, livestock, and other goods.
4.Predictions about the movements of armies.

5.Predictions about the movements of planets.
6.Predictions about the weather.
7.Predictions about the harvest.
8.Accountancy and mathematics.

9.Composition of poetry.
10.Philosophy.
11.Arranging marriages and divorces.
12.Advising on investments.
13.Good-luck charms.
14.Black magic and spells.
15.Supplicating deities.
16.Consecrating building sites.

Although bhikkhus can visit a new house or a building site, and
chant to ward off dangers and evil spirits, they should not be involved in
choosing the site, the position for buildings on the site, nor the auspicious
time for starting work. Such decisions should be made by qualified
town-planners, architects, and builders.

17.Giving ritual bathings.
18.Giving various kinds of medical Treatments.


To summarise:
A bhikkhu should not do anything that would normally be done by lay people for a fee. He can teach secular knowledge or help others with voluntary labour out of compassion, but he should not accept anything in return. If he accepts any kind of reward for such services, it is wrong livelihood, and any goods he has received should be forfeited to another monk. Allowable goods can then be returned to him, and he can use them, but a scrupulous bhikkhu would normally give such things awayto others.
A bhikkhu’s primary duty is to observe the Vinaya, study the Dhamma,and strive in meditation to realise nibbāna. If he receives any suitable gifts that people offer out of faith, it is right livelihood as he is fulfilling a monk’s duty. If he can also teach Dhamma, it is excellent, but he need not, if he doesnot feel competent. Just by following the Vinaya strictly he is teaching the people how to restrain their desires and how to live a simple, contented lifein accordance with the Dhamma.


And in addition maybe also the "Animal Talk" which are often related to wrong livelihoods

Animal Talk
(Tiracchāna Kathā)

Thirth-two kinds of talk obstructing fruition and rebirth in higher planes. (1)

1.Talk about kings (rājakathā)
2.Talk about robbers (corakathā)
3.Talk about ministers of state (mahāmattakathā)
4.Talk about armies (senākathā)
5.Talk about dangers (bhayakathā)
6. Talk about battles (yuddhakathā)
7.Talk about food (annakathā)
8.Talk about drinks (pānakathā)
9.Talk about clothing (vatthakathā)
10.Talk about dwellings (sayanakathā)
11.Talk about garlands (mālākathā)
12.Talk about perfumes (gandhakathā)
13.Talk about relations (ñātikathā)
14.Talk about vehicles (yānakathā)
15.Talk about villages (gāmakathā)
16.Talk about market towns (nigamakathā)
17.Talk about towns (nagarakathā)
18. Talk about districts (janapadakathā)
19.Talk about women (2) (itthikathā)
20.Talk about heroes (sūrakathā)
21. Talk about streets (visikhākathā)
22.Talk about watering places (kumbaṭṭhānakathā)
23.Talk about relatives who have passed away (pubbapetakathā)
24. Tittletattle (nānattakathā)
25.Talk about the origin of the world (lokakkhāyikakathā)
26.Talk about the origin of the ocean (samuddakkhāyikakathā)
27.Talk about annihilation belief (numbers 27 to 32 are known as Itibhavābhavakathā)
28.Talk about eternity belief
29.Talk about worldly gain30.Talk about worldly loss
31.Talk about self-indulgence
32.Talk about self-mortification.

1
These 32 types of talk are listed in the Sandaka Sutta (Middle-length Sayings, Sutta 76),
where the wanderers were talking all kinds of worldly talk. Seeing Venerable Ānanda
coming, the wanderer Sandaka told them to be silent, saying that the Buddha’s disciples donot like a lot of noise. (ed.)
2
Talk about men is omitted in accordance with Majjhima Pannāsa Atthakathā. p.156. 6th.
Synod Edition
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:32 am

What on earth does "fondling children" refer to?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:40 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:What on earth does "fondling children" refer to?


People could be very attached if they see their beloved loved (that does not nessesary means, that one has really such an intention!!) Not to think that faith in gaining merits in touching holy ones is something not so unusal amoung devoted people. We could call it teaching and using affection as a tool.

Image

But also orphanages and similary projects are used to keep a livelihood, which might sometimes (not always!!!) also fall under this line.

Important while running such things or doing such things is that one is not dependent on rewards out of it (catchword: almsgoing). To have the merits to run (give) such things without the subtil intention of "I am worthy, because I am helping", is something very special and not possible for everybody.

How every, it is always a recource of critic.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:11 am

The Visuddhimagga explains "fondling" in the section on Purification of Livelihood:
76. Fondling is the state of the act of fondling. [28] For when a man fondles children
on his lap or on his shoulder like a nurse—he nurses, is the meaning—that fondler’s
act is the act of fondling. The state of the act of fondling is fondling.

The Buddha said that from affection springs grief, from affection springs fear (anxiety).

A bhikkhu should practice loving-kindness (metta), but should not cultivate affection (pema), that is enjoyed by householders. It is hard to tell the difference. Affection seems like a good and worthy thing, but it is unwholesome (akusala), if it were not it would not lead to suffering. Loving-kindess (metta), on the other hand, is entirely wholesome (kusala), as it is impartial, and leads only to happiness in human or celestial existences. It is one of the four Brahmavihāras.

Some bhikkhus fondle children and show them affection to win the favour of the children's parents and grand-parents. If it is not done for these reasons, but only out of compassion or kindness, then it is not wrong livelihood.

A few bhikkhus fondle children with a sexual motive. To avoid any possiible suspicion or doubt about their intentions, it is best for bhikkhus to avoid touching women and girls altogether. Since there are also some men who get sexual pleasure from fondling boys, it is best to avoid fondling boys too for the same reasons, though if only done openly in the presence of the parents it is unlikely to be viewed with suspicion.
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:21 am

Thanks for the good expalining Ven. Pesala,

I just like to add something in regard of touching boys. In SEAsia it is normal that male (also femal) friend touch each other and even walk hand in hand. That is something that causes much disgust for "western" minded people. So be sure that you do not discrimitante Monks who are touching boys or males in a way a western wound think is might be gay. On a level of more understanding of Dhamma it is in anyway wrong and just a worldly way to socialise (develope affection). Just that there is not a general believe that if monks in SEAsia touch each other or even boys is bad minded and with sexual hidden agenda. To be watchful is in all cases good, also to overcome such aversions of being touched by wordly monks.
They are always shocked if you explain them how western would feel seeing such things and it sometimes helps to let go of such things totally.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:57 am

Thanks you Hanzzee :namaste:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Raksha » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:49 pm

'Whosoever, O Bhikkhus, would wait upon me, he should wait upon the sick.' (Mahavagga VIII 26.1-6)

Many monks are masters of traditional medicine, should they just stand by and let the poor people suffer, or should they give them free advice and medicines so that their pain is dispelled?
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:04 am

Monks should practice Raksha, and nothing else. That means mainly that people should not have any other expectance form them. Somebody abstaining from unwholesome actions does already much more as the biggest hero. Not to think if one finaly gains the possibility of producing no more kamma.

In regard of compassion, and the sentence you have quoted, this essay is very useful to understand Buddhas compassion.
Educating Compassion

In SEAsia, Monkhood is kind of misused. In western countries (for example in many European) there is something like a call-up to a duty service for the nation. One is millitarian, one is hunamitarien. So young man need to work for the nation and the wellfare of all about one year for free (just food, shelter, clothes and medicin) That is a very good and needed. In SEAsian countries monkhood is often misused as the needed humanitarian service. On one hand better then to have nothing, on the other hand not useful, because monks are not allowed to do many nessesary things and with it they easily would give a worng understanding of monkhood.
It would be great it SEAsian countries would develop somethings similar to European tradition of duty service and give monkhood the freedom back they would need for their practice. Actually there are many "monks" who are not ready for it, but seek simply for a possibility to make Dana and develope paramis. Its a very need for SEAsian countries to start such humanitarien institutions, not only to prefent the Buddha Sasana to be distroyed by worldly desires.

Monkhood is not Community service on a worldy level and should not be misused as this.

Generally we could say:
From a worldly view, somebody who helps/supports "me/mine/us/our" is worthy for gifts.
From a Buddhist view, somebody who is virtouse is worthy for gifts. One who neither harms me or others, neither takes form me or other beings, neither causes fear for me and all other being.

In regard of medicin, it is for example not allowed for a monk to even harm a plant and also not to cause other to harm a plant. So it's actually nearly impossible to be a medicine monk without violating the precepts.
That would be different, if he would get medizin (without special make-believe) and would share it. There are many relations between a layman and a monk who think that they are able to avoid a violation while following actually nothing else than a wrong livelihood at least.

If one would donate medical plants to the Sangha, and the responsible person of the Sangha would share and give it to somebody who knows how to use it, it would be no probelm to help one or the other out. But like always, if we try to make a business as usual out of it, it runs wrong at least.

You can also read No Strings Attached and The Economy of Gifts to get more understanding of the way of Buddhas livelihood and the danger of Monkhood which is attached to worldly gifts and preaching nothing but Dana at least.

§ "Monks who eat the food that other people donate, but then don't practice, can expect to be reborn as water buffaloes next time around, to till the fields and work off their debts."
, some are even in this live already buffaloes in robes and it would be good to lead them out of their burden.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Dan74 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:54 am

somebody who is virtouse is worthy for gifts. One who neither harms me or others, neither takes form me or other beings, neither causes fear for me and all other being.


That's pretty uninspiring view of life for me, Hanzze...

So a comatose vegetable, like Ariel Sharon, or a mad recluse living in the forest, are virtuous?

I think this whole thread is ill-conceived and comes across as judgmental and lacking in understanding. You seem to be slipping ever further into fundamentalism, my friend... Have you read your signature lately?

Unless I am misreading you completely and you are playing a devil's advocate here.
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:57 am

That's why I thought to make it. Of course its not easy to understand.

I (dont) understand how you come from a "a vituose is worthy" to the question or conclusion "he or his is a virtuose?". An unvituose person is not worthy for gifts, yes.

Have you read your signature lately?

Did you?
Last edited by Hanzze on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Dan74 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:02 am

Hanzze wrote:That's why I thought to make it. Of course its not easy to understand.


It is never easy to understand why people come to their views and even harder to let go of them.
_/|\_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:03 am

Believe me, its always worthy to find out. But therefore one needs to understand one self really good first. Back to the palce to work in order to help other is a good way, the only maybe.

I guess that even this picture is very often confused with the santa clause ideal
Image
Last edited by Hanzze on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Raksha » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:17 am

The Samanatapasadika commentary (5thc.CE) makes a clear distinction between those who dispense medicines out of love, and those who do so for material gain. According to the text if a monk is genuinely skilled in traditional medicine, and if the sick person has no such skill then the monk should prepare the medicines for them. Aside from Sangha, kinsmen, and temple workers a monk is allowed to treat five others, '...a stranger, a robber, a nobleman defeated in battle, a poor man and a villager abandoned by his family, who comes to the monastery after falling ill.'
In Sri Lanka this tradition survives quite happily, without 'destroying the Buddha Sasana with worldly desires'.

http://www.island.lk/2006/09/16/satmag3.html

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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:26 am

Dear Raksha,

did you read the essay about Buddha's Compassion?

The Buddha sets out some guidelines for this area in his definition of the ideal nurse. You're qualified to tend to the sick if
(1) you know how to prepare medicines;
(2) you know what's amenable to the patient's cure, taking away whatever's unamenable and providing things that are amenable;
(3) you're motivated by compassion and not by material gain;
(4) you're not squeamish about cleaning up urine, excrement, saliva, or vomit; and
(5) you're competent at encouraging the patient at the proper times with talk on Dharma.


And at least you need to have the medicine (which is the "crux of the matter") amoung the most enterprises in this direction.

It is not forbidden to help, if there is a possibility.
It is not an obligation to help, if there is no possibility.

But generally, especially if such helping undertakings are much public, know, raised, forced... you can be sure that it is out of the frame of a Bhikkhu or it is an amaizing blissed situation. To generalice it will be nonsens 100%.

A monk lives from what a wise man is giving. There are not that much wise people in the world as we might think. Even if we do not understand all, we can differ if we simply look at the simply rules (without exuces of higher aims...)

There are many countries where the Buddha Sasana is still alive, but actually its just the cultural heritage (well used political or as social network) and the real meaning is long death.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Raksha » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:53 am

:offtopic: In respect of your last post Hanzze, about declining traditions, would you please post a topic about Khmer Buddhism sometime, as I would be fascinated to read about this often overlooked tradition, which is of course the grandparent of SE Asian Buddhism. :focus:

Thankyou, I know of these five qualifications. I actually don't think that we are at all in disagreement :smile: I understand the reasons for your post and I concur with all the rules and cautions that you have listed...except one. For my part, I can never accept that traditional medicine is a 'beastly science'.
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:00 am

There is no such thing as Khmer-Buddhism, but there is in every country the tendecy to use identitiy and nationalism to make Buddhism ones own. We can call it also Folk-Buddhism. Here it is more about Ordination, Vinaya and as taught by the Buddha. If you like to know about Khmer Buddhism, than you also can read about Thai-Buddhism or Tibetan-Buddhism, or Dhammakaya, for sure also Sri Lanka-Buddhism... its all the same. Sure 90% of all Khmer Monks are amoung wrong livelihood and the medicin monk is a normal phenomena. There are not much wise men, who would just simply give alms to the worthy. 60.000 Monks, 60.000 people wlaking a holy live. Nice thought, but somehow very naive. Religion is always a part of politic and social work as I had try to show already. Dhamma-Vinaya is somehow a little beyound and realy helpful at least.

If the Buddha thought that social work would be helpful for people at least, he would not have preached the Dhamma and its way. He would have been a social worker or another Samsara "Wheelturner"

I can never accept that traditional medicine is a 'beastly science'

Me too, very important. If there is no more "traditional" or "allowed" medicine and knowledge about it, there would be no more possible treatment for sick monks and those who take precepts serious wlaking a holy life. So to care and lern about it as a layman and to transfere knowledge as a Bhikkhu is a very meritious deed. But I guess we really run off-topic.
A disagreement left?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:52 am

Many in regrad of Wrong Livelihood is found in the "The Analysis of Virtue" of the Brahmajāla Sutta: The All-embracing Net of Views
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Raksha » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:51 pm

Dear Hanzze, Thankyou for editing your post to make it rather less blunt and unfriendly. I couldn't help noticing that all the topics you dismiss as mere 'folk Buddhism' correspond exactly to my posts :cry: . If I have written anything that offends you please accept my apology. It is true my interests are not exactly the same as yours, but that is not to say that they are worthless.
A scholarly monk once wrote that Buddhism is like pure water, such that when it is placed in different glasses it takes on different colours and shapes. I must admit that I find these multi-coloured forms of Buddhism in different times and cultures absolutely fascinating :geek: . Whereas your view seems to be that anything outside 'ordination, vinaya and as taught by the Buddha' is merely the preserve of politics, nationalism and 'social work' and has no place on this forum.
Which is to say that your opinion is a different colour to mine, which is absolutely fascinating ;)
As my (allegedly adult) offspring are fond of telling me 'you need to chill out, dude.' :sage:
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Re: Wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:30 pm

What kind of livelihood did the scholar monk have?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Hanzze
 
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