the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

Ryuejaku wrote: Accidental or purposely it does not matter.
It most certainly does matter. It is all about intention. The Pali Canon is permeated with Suttas against purposely and directly killing. The indirect things without intention do not create bad kamma.

I am sure you are correct about it being nearly impossible to be 'nutritionally/diet' 100% vegetarian or especially vegan, but one can choose the least amount of violence, if one wishes.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ryuejaku »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Ryuejaku wrote: Accidental or purposely it does not matter.
It most certainly does matter. It is all about intention. The Pali Canon is permeated with Suttas against purposely and directly killing. The indirect things without intention do not create bad kamma.
Im aware of intention and was not talking on accumulating bad/negative karma. mainly a violent action towards sentient beings is happening.


[quote="David N. Snyder"I am sure you are correct about it being nearly impossible to be 'nutritionally/diet' 100% vegetarian or especially vegan, but one can choose the least amount of violence, if one wishes.[/quote]

of course vegan & Vegetarian are significantly less violent then a hard core meat eater.

to use the notion of numbers & percentages on a violent scale in regards to eating sentient beings. 0-11 ( 11 is most violent) .

Vegan- .5 - 2
Vegetarian 2.5-4.5
Vegetarian that seldomly eats wild caught fish (3.5-6)
Omnivore ( who eats more plants then animals etc) 7-8
Omnivore ( whose a hard core meat eater whose freezer and fridge stacked with fish, burgers etc ) 8-10.5

for a peaceful person i would say with out a shadow of a doubt Vegan & Vegetarian is way to go.

on another note and not to jump to conclusions, I assure you my post was not to get peps to say forget vegan and vegetarian coz its not 100% possible.
just joining discussion and posting on it.
50-70 more not bad in no rush
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Personally I love these threads and read the various arguments pro and con with great interest. :popcorn: So keep the fires stoked, my Buddha-homies.

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian, seen as a person of great compassion by some and a monstrous supporter of industrialized-torture-factories by others. The views of either don't influence my eating habits either way.

Oh yeah: about once every six weeks or so I consume a hamburger because I have this superstitious belief that every time I do so, one of those angry preachy vegan types chokes to death on a rice cake.

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Hanzze
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Hanzze »

Ryuejaku wrote:Vegetarian in reference to not eating meat/sentient beings.
Would eating beings without feeling, or who remain in a persistent vegetative state, or special use or purpose be ok? Things which are just vegetating?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DAWN »

SN 18.1
Bones And A Lump of Flesh


At one time the Blessed One was living in the squirrels' sanctuary in the bamboo grove in Rajagaha.
At that time venerable Lakkhaõa and venerable Mahàmoggallàna were living in the peaks of the Gijjha rock.
Venerable Mahàmoggallàna wearing robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes approached venerable Lakkhaõa.
Approaching said to venerable Lakkhaõa: ßFriend Lakkhaõa, let us enter Rajagaha for alms.û Venerable Lakkhaõa said: ßYes, friend.û
Venerable Mahàmoggallàna while descending from the Gijjha peak, smiled at a certain spot.
Then venerable Lakkhaõa said to venerable Mahàmoggallàna: ßFriend, Moggallàna, for what reasson did you smile?
Friend, Lakkhaõa, this is not the right time to ask that question. Ask that question in the presence of the Blessed One.û

Then venerable Lakkhaõa and venerable Mahàmoggallàna went the alms round in Rajagaha. After partaking the meal and returning from the alms round approached the Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side.
Sitting on a side venerable Lakkhaõa said to venerable Mahàmoggallàna: ßFriend Moggallàna, when descending from the Gijjha peak you smiled at a certain spot, for what reason did you smile?û
Friend, when I was descending the Gijjha peak, I saw a skeleton moving in space and it was followed and attacked by vultures, crows, and hawks, and they pull a rib from it and divide it among them, and the skeleton gives a cry of distress.
Friend, then it occurred to me: `Indeed it is wonderful and surprising to see a being, a non-human, a gain of self like this.û'
Then the Blessed One addressed the monks: ßMonks, the disciple should live wisely with aroused knowledge, when he knows, sees or witnesses such a thing.
Monks, in the past I saw this being, yet I did not tell it to anyone. If I had told, others would not believe me and it would be for their ill being and unpleasantness for a long time.
Monks, this person was a slaughterer of cattle in this same Rajagaha. As a result of that action he suffered in hell for many years, for many hundreds of years, for many thousands of years, for many hundred thousands of years. And as a result of that action suffers, having gained that self.û


SN 18.2
(Repeat sutta 18. 1. 1. substituting as follows:)
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a muscle moving in space ...
... as this person was a slaughterer of cows in this same Rajagaha ...


SN 18.3
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a piece of flesh moving in space ...
... as this person was a bird hunter in this same Rajagaha ...


SN 18.4
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a skinned man moving in space ...
... this person was a slaughterer of pigs in this same Rajagaha ...


SN 18.1
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a man with knives rising from the body and falling on the body, moving in space ...
.. this person was a slaughterer of pigs in this same Rajagaha ...


SN 18.1
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a man with swords rising from the body and falling on the body moving in space ...
... this person was a hunter of wild animals in this same Rajagaha ...


Ven Bhikkhu Bidhi stranslate "slaughter" like "butcher"

Many peoples say that it's OK to buy meat etc cause there is no itention to kill, there is no incitement to kill. But isn't money the incitement to kill?
I think that is not OK to put taste pleasure forward a life of one being. I hope you will never suffer like they suffer.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Hanzze »

Do you think that there a butcher who are vegetarians?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DAWN »

Technichaly is possible... Some peoples comes vegetarian or vegan cause they have some illness for some products.

Also, there is one law in drug buisness (cause meat is a drug): "never consum your own drug !"
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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DAWN wrote:...cause meat is a drug...
No, its not.

kind regards,

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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For a seller, I guess it needs to be a drug to get a good amount of demand. I am not sure if we need to speak of a need in case of meat.

But that works for vegi-burger as well.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DAWN »

Ben wrote:
DAWN wrote:...cause meat is a drug...
No, its not.

kind regards,

Ben
Yes, its addiction.
Why? Because it brings pleasure. All that brings pleasure have addiction like consequence.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DAWN »

Hanzze wrote:For a seller, I guess it needs to be a drug to get a good amount of demand. I am not sure if we need to speak of a need in case of meat.

But that works for vegi-burger as well.
Iam sorry i dont fully understande the sebse of your post :embarassed:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

DAWN wrote: Yes, its addiction.
Why? Because it brings pleasure. All that brings pleasure have addiction like consequence.
I don't think that is an accurate connection. Anything can be an addiction, including television, gambling, sex, or eating tofu or meat. (All of these might be enjoyable.) This does not mean everything is a drug.

You don't need drugs to survive, but we do need food.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DAWN »

David N. Snyder wrote:
DAWN wrote: Yes, its addiction.
Why? Because it brings pleasure. All that brings pleasure have addiction like consequence.
I don't think that is an accurate connection. Anything can be an addiction, including television, gambling, sex, or eating tofu or meat. (All of these might be enjoyable.) This does not mean everything is a drug.

You don't need drugs to survive, but we do need food.
Exectly !
All is drug.
Existance is drug.Life is drug. Drugs brings suffer. Samsara is addicted state of mind.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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David N. Snyder wrote:You don't need drugs to survive, but we do need food.
So we need meat to survive?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DAWN »

Hanzze wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:You don't need drugs to survive, but we do need food.
So we need meat to survive?
:goodpost:

We don't need meat in our estomach to survive, but animals need that meat on their body to survive.

There is no eny exuse.
Eat meat or wear leather is killing.
Eat or use other animal products is slavery.
Thats all. Stop resirch any exuse, there is no any exuse or condition "to have no kamma" or condition "to not have results of bad kamma". Stop think only about you, there is no only you and your kamma in this world... Stop defend Mara. Please.

Killing is killing
Slavery is slavery

Pay somebody to kill is encourage him to kill. Stop pay for crime.

This pig is agree with me > :pig:
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