Pali Term: Sati

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Billymac29 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:06 pm

Hello,
Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
    And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating mental objects in mental objects?

    Herein, monks, a monk lives contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances.

    How, monks, does a monk live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances?

    Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire comes to be.
    -- MN10


That's a good example of discernment of kinds of behaviour (dhamma-vicaya), with inroads to "four right efforts". There's no equanimity toward hindrances here.


Dmyrto,
Kind greetings. :smile:
I don't know how you came up with the above... It says a "monk knows", not a monk likes or dislikes. Please show which part says to have a non equanimous attribute towards any of the objects?

To know I have a desire in me means: I have an awareness that I have a desire in me. In other words I am aware of the desire in me.

English dictionary:
awareness - having knowledge of;
Rememebering - 1.) Have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of (someone or something that one has seen, known, or experienced in the past). 2.) Do something that one has undertaken to do or that is necessary or advisable. 3.) To have or use the power of memory...etc


I understand your comment about discernment though.

with metta
:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Dmytro » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:13 pm

Hello Billymac,

Billymac29 wrote:I don't know how you came up with the above... It says a "monk knows", not a monk likes or dislikes. Please show which part says to have a non equanimous attribute towards any of the objects?


As discussed above, 'upekkha' (equanimity) refers to attitude to feelings. It does not relate to attitude to hindrances in any way.

To know I have a desire in me means: I have an awareness that I have a desire in me. In other words I am aware of the desire in me.


Certainly there's awareness in Satipatthana practice. That's the function of 'sampajanna'.

Rememebering - 1.) Have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of (someone or something that one has seen, known, or experienced in the past). 2.) Do something that one has undertaken to do or that is necessary or advisable. 3.) To have or use the power of memory...etc


Here 'sati' as 'remembrance' does not relate to remembering the past events, but to:

"Definition of REMEMBRANCE

1: the state of bearing in mind"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remembrance

Meditator with developed 'sati' steadily bears in mind Buddha's instructions on what to watch for and how to apply the right efforts, cultivating skilful and abandoning unskilful behaviour.

with metta
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Billymac29 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:16 pm

Hello Dmytro,

you wrote:
Certainly there's awareness in Satipatthana practice. That's the function of 'sampajanna'.

True, however I think it also relates to sati. I think you're trying to pigeon hole the word awareness.

Here 'sati' as 'remembrance' does not relate to remembering the past events,

This sounds a little confusing. Because you then say the following.
Meditator with developed 'sati' steadily bears in mind Buddha's instructions on what to watch for and how to apply the right efforts, cultivating skilful and abandoning unskilful behaviour.
In order to "steadily bear in mind Buddha's instructions", you have to remember the instructions. The instructions are past events.

"Definition of REMEMBRANCE

1: the state of bearing in mind"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remembrance

bearing in mind was in my definition
Rememebering - 1.) Have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of ...

to bear = to bring to. Bear in that sense means to put forth, move.

Remembrance: re·mem·brance/riˈmembrəns/ Noun: The action of remembering something.

I can rephrase your statement: A meditator with developed 'sati' remembers Buddha's instructions on what to watch for...etc


If one is going to give 'sati' the definition with the forms of the verb remember, then one has to take into account that awareness is part of an english definition of the word remember and therefore is linked to all its tenses and forms (i.e. remembering, remembered, remembrance...etc).

if one remembers, then one has an awareness of.

may all be well
:anjali:
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Billymac29 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:23 pm

Sylvester wrote:Hi Dmytro

Hmm, I really can't see much difference between remembrance versus recollection.


There isn't any. Its in the definition.

"to have recollection (sometimes followed by of )": i.e. The old man had remembrance of his youth.

Remembrance and recollection are listed as synonyms.

all be well :smile:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Billymac29 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:10 pm

I believe the "bare" in bare awareness or bare attention is attributed to such suttas:

from access to insight:

Bāhiya Sutta:
"Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: in the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed [2] will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized. Practising in this way, Bāhiya, you will not be 'because of that'. When you are not 'because of that' you will not be 'in that'. And when you are not 'in that' then you will be neither here not beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

To say "will be merely" means unadorned or not decorated; without extras; nothing added or taken; nothing hidden..etc

If we look at the english word BARE :
1.
without covering or clothing; naked; nude: i.e. bare legs.
2.
without the usual furnishings, contents, etc.: i.e bare walls.
3.
open to view; unconcealed; undisguised: i.e. his bare dislike of neckties.
4.
unadorned; bald; plain: i.e. the bare facts.
5.
(of cloth) napless or threadbare.

One can see the similarities. I believe linking mindfulness with suttas like this one might bring one to an understanding of where 'bare awareness' might have been coined.

may all be well
:smile:
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:20 am

When you are not 'because of that' you will not be 'in that'. And when you are not 'in that' then you will be neither here not beyond nor in between the two.

1. How could you come there if you have not compared it's qualities step by step (from raw to the fine, without thinking that the fine is already an absence as a reminder of a maybe wrong track)
2. It is not about action but more of a aim to be reached.
3. I guess 'in that' is often that what we might call bare
4. "when you are..." needs to remember and for sure well if it is stanza (btw. thanks for sharing)
5. Not to forget that "bare" would need to be maintained (by remembering bare/not bare in a sence of [almost] naked/clean - covered/dirty) as it is not unconditioned
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Dmytro » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:32 am

Hello Billymac,

Billymac29 wrote:If one is going to give 'sati' the definition with the forms of the verb remember, then one has to take into account that awareness is part of an english definition of the word remember and therefore is linked to all its tenses and forms (i.e. remembering, remembered, remembrance...etc).

if one remembers, then one has an awareness of.


I'm drawing here upon Pali passages, and not upon English definitions. If you can provide a Pali passage where 'sati' functions as 'awareness', please do so.
There's simply no such passages.

Simlarly, I draw upon Pali passages to show the role of 'sati' as 'remembrance' (see posts above). If you can provide the passages illustrating how 'sati' functions in meditative context as recollection of past events, please do so.

I believe the "bare" in bare awareness or bare attention is attributed to such suttas:


The origins of 'bare attention' concept are discussed elsewhere:

On Some Definitions of Mindfulness by Rupert Gethin
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13538&start=120#p205445

The author of this concept didn't rely on the Bahiya sutta in his works.

The passage from Bahiya sutta you quoted does not refer to 'sati', the meaning of which we discuss in this thread, but rather to abiding in emptiness (sunnata) or recognizing the impersonal nature (anatta).

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:29 pm

Dmytro wrote:
I'm drawing here upon Pali passages, and not upon English definitions. If you can provide a Pali passage where 'sati' functions as 'awareness', please do so.
There's simply no such passages.

Simlarly, I draw upon Pali passages to show the role of 'sati' as 'remembrance' (see posts above). If you can provide the passages illustrating how 'sati' functions in meditative context as recollection of past events, please do so.


Respectfully, you can't translate meanings of words from one language to another without using their correct definitions. If your trying to find an english word to translate a pali word then you need to use the definitions. The pali passages I use for 'sati' give the meaning "to remember". Within the meaning of the word 'remember' is the word and meaning of 'awareness'.

I think your misunderstanding me and the language. If you draw upon Pali passages to show the role of 'sati' as 'remembrance', then you have to incorporate awareness as 'function' in those same passages... You can't say this pali word has the meaning of 'remembrance' but not the meaning of 'awareness'. That doesn't make sense. I don't know if you are a native speaker of english or not, but as a teacher I can tell you it's perfectly find to add in "awareness of" to any translation of the word 'remembrance'. If you don't want to accept that, then I suggest trying to find another meaning of the word 'sati' other then 'remembrance' and all derivatives of the word.

The same passages you draw upon to show 'remembrance', I can use to show "to remember" hence also "awareness of". Sorry but you can't have one without the other. You're trying to separate meaning of words that you can't separate. "Remembrance" has the same root meaning as "remember", "recollect", "remembering", "rememberability",...etc which is an awareness of something.

may all be well
:smile:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Billymac29 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:19 am

Dmytro wrote:
I believe the "bare" in bare awareness or bare attention is attributed to such suttas:


The origins of 'bare attention' concept are discussed elsewhere:

On Some Definitions of Mindfulness by Rupert Gethin
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p205445

The author of this concept didn't rely on the Bahiya sutta in his works.

The passage from Bahiya sutta you quoted does not refer to 'sati', the meaning of which we discuss in this thread, but rather to abiding in emptiness (sunnata) or recognizing the impersonal nature (anatta).

:anjali:

I wasn't showing reference to sati, but to the english word 'bare'.

Considering the Buddha's teachings are thousands of years old, and have been passed orally for hundreds of years, I don't think it is skillful to nit pick over exact meanings of words in translations. It is highly doubtful that anything in the tipitika (pali or not) is the actual words used by the Buddha himself. The best we can do, logically, is to get an over all understanding of what the suttas are talking about and try to apply that to our practice.

Having said that,
Words like "bare attention", "choiceless awareness", etc.. are not just genuine to the Theravada lineage. Such practices date back centuries in the Tibetan and Zen traditions of Mahayana tradition. Such meditations are used in Objectless Shinay and Shikantaza from Tibet and Zen respectively. These came into effect well before Krishnamurti, Nyanaponika, and Rupert Gethin were ever even born let alone a thought.

"On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.'

Dispassion - objectivity and detachment; the state or quality of being unemotional or emotionally uninvolved.


with metta :anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Dmytro » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:39 am

Hi Billymac,

On this forum, and particularly in the Pali terms threads, I appreciate clear arguments with precise Pali glosses and references from people who know at least some Pali.

If you don't believe that the Tipitaka contains the actual words used by the Buddha, then we don't have a basis for meaningful discussion, and I would ask you not to post in this thread.

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Billymac29 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:06 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Billymac,

On this forum, and particularly in the Pali terms threads, I appreciate clear arguments with precise Pali glosses and references from people who know at least some Pali.


I understand :) And I think your quite good with gathering Pali glosses and references. However, once a word is translated into another language, it can be renamed again in that new language without losing meaning. It all depends on the language and its usages. English is a perfect example of a language which one can say the same thing in many different ways.

If you don't believe that the Tipitaka contains the actual words used by the Buddha, then we don't have a basis for meaningful discussion


I don't see how that would not be basis for discussion. Do I think "every single word" came exactly as the buddha said it? No. Do I believe the Buddha's teachings are in the Tipitika? Yes.

, and I would ask you not to post in this thread.


I believe I'm staying within the guidelines of the thread. But I wont keep posting.

I never said you had to agree with me :)
as the Buddha said:
“Monk, it’s as if there were a man who had never seen a riddle tree (lit. ‘What is this’ – tree). He would go to another man who had seen one and, on arrival, would say to him, ‘What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?”
“The other would say, ‘A riddle tree is black, my good man, like a burnt stump.’ For at the time he saw it, that’s what the riddle tree was like. (Tena kho pana, bhikkhu, samayena tādisovassa kiṃsuko yathāpi tassa purisassa dassanaṃ)
“Then the first man, dissatisfied with the other man’s answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, ‘What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?’
“The other would say, ‘A riddle tree is red, my good man, like a lump of meat.’ For at the time he saw it, that’s what the riddle tree was like.
“Then the first man, dissatisfied with this man’s answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, ‘What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?’
“The other would say, ‘A riddle tree is stripped of its bark, my good man, and has burst pods, like an acacia tree.’ For at the time he saw it, that’s what the riddle tree was like.
“Then the first man, dissatisfied with this man’s answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, ‘What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?’
“The other would say, ‘A riddle tree has thick foliage, my good man, and gives a dense shade, like a banyan.’ For at the time he saw it, that’s what the riddle tree was like.
“In the same way, monk, however those intelligent men of integrity were focused (yathā yathā adhimuttānaṃ) when their vision became well purified is the way in which they answered.""


for the thread :smile:
Some other definitions of sati:
Sati (f.) [Vedic smṛti: see etym. under sarati2] memory, recognition, consciousness, D i.180; ii.292; Miln 77 — 80; intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, self — possession, conscience, self — consciousness D i.19; iii.31, 49, 213, 230, 270 sq.; A i.95; Dhs 14; Nd1 7; Tikp 61; VbhA 91; DhsA 121; Miln 37; etc. [link]

and under sarati we find:

Sarati2 [smṛ, cp. smṛti=sati; Dhtp 248 "cintā"; Lat memor, memoria=memory; Gr. me/rimna care, ma/rtu witness, martyr; Goth. maúrnan=E. mourn to care, etc.] to remember D ii.234; Vin i.28; ii.79; J ii.29. …. — Caus. sāreti to remind Vin ii.3 sq., 276; iii.221; sārayamāna, reminding J i.50; ppr. pass. sāriyamāna Vin iii.221; w. acc. D ii.234; w. gen. Dh 324; J vi.496; with foll. fut. II. (in ˚tā) Vinii.125, 4; iii.44, 9, etc. — Caus. II. sarāpeti Vin iii.44; Miln 37 (with double acc.), 79. [link]

One teachers perspective
"I would translate sati as “attentive awareness,” but would quickly point out that that expression is only one of the aspects of sati, “paying attention in order to remember and to recollect, to reflect later” being another aspect. From the perspective of practice, “mental noting” is another aspect of sati, as well."

Another
“In the mirror of Memory” edited by Janet Gyatso (esp. Collette Cox’ article), a wonderful compilation of all kinds of Indian sources on the connection between sati

"…Mindfulness is chosen here not, as in many cases, to avoid confusion with the psychological function of smrti as memory, but precisely for the opposite reason; that is, to indicate at the outset what this chapter will illustrate: that the contexts for the operation of smrti suggested by the term mindfulness actually encompass the psychological functions of memory as they were understood within Indian Buddhism."

may all be well
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:08 am

Billymac29 wrote: I believe I'm staying within the guidelines of the thread. But I wont keep posting.
You can post in this thread. Your posts were not out of line.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Dmytro » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:58 am

Hi Billymac,

Billymac29 wrote:I understand :) And I think your quite good with gathering Pali glosses and references. However, once a word is translated into another language, it can be renamed again in that new language without losing meaning. It all depends on the language and its usages. English is a perfect example of a language which one can say the same thing in many different ways.


That's why the context is important - since it clarifies the exact meaning of the word. It's Pali passages which provide such context for Pali words.

I don't see how that would not be basis for discussion. Do I think "every single word" came exactly as the buddha said it? No. Do I believe the Buddha's teachings are in the Tipitika? Yes.


OK, you can post in this thread :)

“In the mirror of Memory” edited by Janet Gyatso (esp. Collette Cox’ article), a wonderful compilation of all kinds of Indian sources on the connection between sati

"…Mindfulness is chosen here not, as in many cases, to avoid confusion with the psychological function of smrti as memory, but precisely for the opposite reason; that is, to indicate at the outset what this chapter will illustrate: that the contexts for the operation of smrti suggested by the term mindfulness actually encompass the psychological functions of memory as they were understood within Indian Buddhism."


Thank you, that's quite interesting.

Link to the article by Collet Cox "Mindfulness and Memory: The Scope of Smrti from Early Buddhism to Sarvastivadin Abhidharma":
http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=SbI ... 7&lpg=PA67
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Dmytro » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:36 am

Collet Cox brings attention to the refrain from the Kayagatasati sutta:

Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati, sannisīdati, ekodi hoti, samādhiyati. Evampi bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagataṃ satiṃ bhāveti.

And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

and to the similar passage from Dantabhumi sutta:

So ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalikaraṇe kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Seyyathāpi aggivessana, hatthidamako mahantaṃ thambhaṃ paṭhaviyaṃ nikhaṇitvā āraññakassa nāgassa gīvāyaṃ upanibandhati. Āraññakānañceva sīlānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, āraññakānañceva sarasaṅkappānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, āraññakānañceva darathakilamathapariḷāhānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, gāmante abhiramāpanāya, manussakantesu sīlesu sampādanāya1 evameva kho aggivessana, ariyasāvakassa ime cattāro satipaṭṭhānā cetaso upanibandhanā honti. Gehasitānañceva sīlānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, gehasitānañceva sarasaṅkappānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, gehasitānañceva darathakilamathapariḷāhānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, ñāyassa adhigamāya nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#pts.128
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Billymac29 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:34 pm

Venerable Sujato states in A History of Mindfulness
....
" The classic description here is the account of the Bodhisatta’s austerities. His striving was most terrible: ‘crushing mind with mind’, doing the ‘breath- less jhāna’ until he felt as if his head was being pierced with a sword or crushed with a leather strap. But he could not make any progress. Why?

‘My energy was roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness was established and unconfused, but my body was afflicted and not tran- quil because I was exhausted by the painful striving. But such painful feeling as arose in me did not invade my mind and remain.’59
The Mūlasarvāstivāda account available in Sanskrit confirms that the Bodhisatta practiced mindfulness during his period of striving.60 Here, ‘mindfulness’ is obviously used in the sense of ‘present moment awareness’ rather than ‘memory’. This is confirmed in the following passage:
‘Such was my scrupulousness, Sāriputta, that I was always mindful in stepping forwards and stepping backwards. I was full of pity even for [the beings in] a drop of water, thinking: “Let me not hurt the tiny creatures in the crevices of the ground.” ’61


with metta
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:52 am

Hi Billymac,

Billymac29 wrote:‘Such was my scrupulousness, Sāriputta, that I was always mindful in stepping forwards and stepping backwards. I was full of pity even for [the beings in] a drop of water, thinking: “Let me not hurt the tiny creatures in the crevices of the ground.” ’61


Thank you for another example of remembrance, in this case, of non-harming.

This reminds me of another sutta, with other things to remember:

‘‘Sikkhānisaṃsamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ vussati paññuttaraṃ vimuttisāraṃ satādhipateyyaṃ....
‘‘Kathañca, bhikkhave, satādhipateyyaṃ hoti? ‘Iti aparipūraṃ vā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhaṃ paripūressāmi, paripūraṃ vā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti aparipūraṃ vā ādibrahmacariyikaṃ sikkhaṃ paripūressāmi, paripūraṃ vā ādibrahmacariyikaṃ sikkhaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti asamavekkhitaṃ vā dhammaṃ paññāya samavekkhissāmi, samavekkhitaṃ vā dhammaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti aphusitaṃ vā dhammaṃ vimuttiyā phusissāmi, phusitaṃ vā dhammaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satādhipateyyaṃ hoti. ‘Sikkhānisaṃsamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ vussati paññuttaraṃ vimuttisāraṃ satādhipateyya’nti, iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ idametaṃ paṭicca vutta’’nti.

“This holy life is lived… with mindfulness as its governing principle.…
And how is mindfulness the governing principle? The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to good conduct that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to good conduct that is complete’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is complete’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will scrutinize with discernment any Dhamma that is not yet scrutinized, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been scrutinized’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will touch through release any Dhamma that is not yet touched, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been touched’ is well-established right within.
“This is how mindfulness is the governing principle.”

— AN 4:245

Metta,
Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:54 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Billymac,

Billymac29 wrote:‘Such was my scrupulousness, Sāriputta, that I was always mindful in stepping forwards and stepping backwards. I was full of pity even for [the beings in] a drop of water, thinking: “Let me not hurt the tiny creatures in the crevices of the ground.” ’61


Thank you for another example of remembrance, in this case, of non-harming.
In other words, an example of "remembrance" meaning being in the present moment.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:02 pm

Another good example of remembrance:

150. Mettaṃ ca sabbalokasmiṃ mānasaṃ bhāvaye aparimānaṃ
Uddhaṃ adho ca tiriyañca asambādhaṃ averaṃ asapattaṃ

151. Tiṭṭhaṃ caraṃ nisinno vā sayāno vā yāvatassa vigatamiddho
Etaṃ satiṃ adhiṭṭheyya brahmametaṃ vihāraṃ idhamāhu

With good will for the entire cosmos,
cultivate a limitless heart:
Above, below, & all around,
unobstructed, without enmity or hate.
Whether standing, walking,
sitting, or lying down,
as long as one is alert,
one should be resolved on this mindfulness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby mirco » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:07 pm

Dmytro wrote:Another good example of remembrance:
150. Mettaṃ ca sabbalokasmiṃ mānasaṃ bhāvaye aparimānaṃ Uddhaṃ adho ca tiriyañca asambādhaṃ averaṃ asapattaṃ 151. Tiṭṭhaṃ caraṃ nisinno vā sayāno vā yāvatassa vigatamiddho Etaṃ satiṃ adhiṭṭheyya brahmametaṃ vihāraṃ idhamāhu

With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate. Whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, as long as one is alert, one should be resolved on this remembrance.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Maybe the best one.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:41 am

I have already debunked this argument: it is not because you can replace mindfulness by remembrance everywhere that the latter gives the correct meaning.

In every sentence where the word car occurs, you can replace it by 'vehicle', but that does not mean that the latter gives the correct meaning.

What to do?
:shrug:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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