Making Merit - or is it craving?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
befriend
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by befriend »

this is a little off topic but is it bad to do good deeds out of happiness for oneself and at the samet time out of compassion for the recipient. i enjoy the bliss that comes from giving, i could see how someone could get attached to it, and LIKE it. so is it better to not think of onself at all when giving?
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DAWN
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by DAWN »

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote:PS there is a level when you must let go subjectiv metta (doing merit), and dwell in absolute metta, wise metta, without good or bad, without judging, without correcting, but let dhammas be what they are - this is a absolute merit action, absolute metta, wise like a mirrow.
Why take the stairs when you can fly to the rooftop, is that your view?
"There is a level" mean that there is a stair.

That is concern metta, it's must be develop at maximum before start to develop direct comprehention of anicca, dukkha and anatta.
If we dont have a base of metta before understanding anica dukkha and anatta, there is a risk to discover a "Dirk side".


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Venerable Ledi Sayādaw often criticised so-called "merit-making" too. However, it does depend a lot on having the right-view and right intention. Giving alms, firmly believing in the rich fruit of wholesome kamma, hoping for long life, wisdom, health, wealth, and other blessings in future existences is not necessarily craving to enjoy sensual pleasures — one may merely wish to gain favourable circumstances to practice the Dhamma in future lives. The noblest giving is done aspiring to realise the cessation of craving (nibbāna).

The Bodhisatta also practised the perfections throughout many existences, wishing to attain Omniscience. We must distinguish between the unwholesome kamma of craving (tanhā), and the wholesome desire to attain spiritual progress (chandiddhipāda). Without a strong desire to succeed, nothing can be attained.

In his Manual of Profound Meaning (Gambhīra Dīpanī) he admonished a rather materialistic Buddhist minister.

NOW, it’s the most favourable chance,
five rare attainments to enhance,
oh! You’re a man of international fame,
and you’ve plenty of affairs all the same.

They seem important and real,
but they are not worthy nor essential.
Your viewpoint is neither clear nor right,
in charcoal-room at dark cloudy midnight.

You perform good actions occasionally,
according to your whims, traditionally.
Time is steadily passing without stopping,
as to death, the leveller, you’re approaching.

As a gift or fee for the executioner,
with various foods, to present or to offer,
resting in the aggregates of wealthy chamber,
you are waiting to die with satisfaction
enjoying the worldly assumed perfection.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by m0rl0ck »

Dan74 wrote:I guess Bodhidharma was urging the emperor to see beyond his notions of accumulating merit. To see the conditioned nature of good karma and bad karma. Emptiness.

It is not a denial of merit-making. Indeed Chinese Buddhism is very big on making merit. Form is emptiness, but emptiness is also form. So seeing into the conditioned nature does not mean such acts are pointless. It is grasping after merit that is pointless, not merit-making itself, though its fruit are conditioned and ultimately unsatisfactory.

There are many versions of this story. Some that differentiate the good karma and true merit (which is more akin to insight and liberation). I guess in Zen the key teaching is a sweeping away of the attachment to the worldly, even when the worldly is acts of great merit like supporting the Dharma.

"What is the highest meaning of the holy Dharma?' asks the Emperor.

"Vast emptiness, nothing holy," came Bodhidharma's reply.

The emperor was very learned and renowned for his good deeds. He was adept in the worldly Dharma. Perhaps he was ripe for the rug to be pulled from under his feet? This is the shocking tactic of the Zen school - whatever is the most immediate attachment, that is snatched away. For one who is not yet proficient in the worldly, you don't snatch the worldly. But for one who has mastered the worldly and pitches his tent there, he/she is urged to keep going. Sometimes setting that tent on fire is the only way to make someone move...
:goodpost:

Also, the consequences of one good deed or kind word reverberate endlessly :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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kirk5a
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by kirk5a »

DAWN wrote: "There is a level" mean that there is a stair.
Well I don't see where this level of "absolute metta" fits in to the graduated training. It sounds like it could (hypothetically) be referring to a level of attainment, rather than something that can actually be practiced. The Buddha's instructions are to develop skillful dhammas and abandon unskillful ones, not just "let them be, without correction."
That is concern metta, it's must be develop at maximum before start to develop direct comprehention of anicca, dukkha and anatta.
If we dont have a base of metta before understanding anica dukkha and anatta, there is a risk to discover a "Dirk side".
Are you suggesting a mass murderer like that fellow had any comprehension whatsoever of anicca, dukkha, anatta? Certainly not.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Hanzze
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by Hanzze »

kirk5a wrote:
Hanzze wrote: Can you bring a sample.
Have an excellent day Hanzze.
Thanks! That is what Dana is about. Letting go of possession while maintaing a wholesome mind state (before, while doing and after)
David N. Snyder wrote:
Ben wrote: Yes, intention is key. However, its my contention that even if one is mainly motivated by greed for future rewards, then the act of giving itself must contain some moments of genuine selfless generosity for that individual to give at all.
I agree. The end does not always justify the means, however, some giving, any giving, even with some expectation, is better than being a selfish miser who never gives his time, money, or labor to anyone or any cause. The giver may not be an arahant and who are we to judge and speculate on kammic outcomes.
There are very less samples of selfishness giving.
Another example could be the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Sure they are billionaires, sure their name is written all over the foundation, but look how much good they have done; from building homes, providing jobs, scholarships, to vaccinations in the Third World; they have probably saved millions of lives. Perhaps it was to have their name known as philanthropists, perhaps for the Foundation, their legacy, for winning the Time magazine persons of the year. In the end, did it not help so many people? And of course they could have done like many billionaires and buy another yacht, Rolls Royce, etc.
The poppularity of such action is exactly what makes Dana (as merit and not as a require to turn on) not easy be understood by many.

I guess it is needed to divide maybe into maybe three kinds of Dana (giving), one that is aspirated by the motivation of gain (todays way of life), one that is aspirated by the motivation of keeping things equal and alive (the function which might be well explaint in the essey posted by Ben), and on that is aspireted by the motivation of simply letting go of ones possession.

Those samples hit exactly what is told by Bhikkhu Ashin Janakabhivamsa and are in fact a terrible force of distruction of any lasting functioning social system and increasing of thoughts of individualism and an endangering of all traditionall autorities and those action are comming back.

Receiving is also another good practice. As lay people there are plenty of times we receive gifts from others. Does jealousy arise, do we question the value of the gifts, the motive of the giver? If so, then we are not acting in a wholesome way as the receiver either. Such mind states would be the far enemy of mudita (and probably the far enemies of metta, karuna, and upekkha too).
Very good point! Somebody who is not able to receive, not used to receive will hardly be able to give. He just accepts what is good form him in the present moment and he just gives what he means that is good and in a manner of controll or rander the outside like he likes to have it.
Once I was eating with some family and friends at a restaurant and the person who invited all of us went to receive the bill. I knew that he was not of good financial means so offered to pay the bill. This is somewhat a common practice among some people as some will fight for the bill to pay it (perhaps out of generosity or perhaps out of ego). The person who invited us told me that this was his invitation and he insisted he will pay. I realized what a stupid mistake I made and apologized and of course let him pay. As receivers we can make mistakes too, just as the giver may not always have the best motives too.
Great sample, thanks for sharing.

When ever you see a rich man, give him what ever you have. He needs it more then you, but be careful he could be angry about it. So do not make him feel that he is poor.
Ben wrote:I recently completed reading a very interesting work which discussed at length the role of merit making in Burmese society and how it binds the laity, sangha and state together and how it legitimizes the state. It makes for some very interesting reading.
http://www.amazon.com/Burmas-Mass-Lay-M ... 0896802558" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I recommend this short and great essay The lessons of gratidute in addition, to understand on one hand the ways of giving and taking to provide a well sociaty and a good live as well as to understand the way out of giving and taking and to understand Dana (letting go) from a very dharmic view.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Ben
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by Ben »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:In his Manual of Profound Meaning (Gambhīra Dīpanī) he admonished a rather materialistic Buddhist minister.
Thanks Bhante, I wasn't aware of that publication.
Oh, yes I have, but under its other title “Four Stanzas on Saṃvega.”
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Hanzze
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by Hanzze »

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. Then Anāthapiṇḍika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, are gifts still given in your family?"

"Gifts are still given in my family, lord, but they are coarse: broken rice cooked with bran, accompanied by pickle brine."

...About Velāma
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by DNS »

Hanzze wrote: When ever you see a rich man, give him what ever you have. He needs it more then you, but be careful he could be angry about it. So do not make him feel that he is poor.
:jumping:
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ground
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by ground »

No doer, no doing, nothing/nobody acted upon ... the greatest merit of all :sage:
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Hanzze
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by Hanzze »

Or the greatest forlornness... One needs to stay very honest to be not in the spheare of ignorance of ignorance and a good meassure is to look if one has more that really needed (four daily new requires) to but honesty into a test.

Some no doer, still fill and open the refrigorator not to speak to maintain it running.

:geek:
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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ground
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by ground »

Hanzze wrote:Or the greatest forlornness...
Losing fear is great merit :sage:
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Hanzze
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by Hanzze »

Or (and mostly) a screaming of seeking refuge in moha. Put it into a test, there is no other way to be sure.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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ground
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by ground »

Hanzze wrote:Or (and mostly) a screaming of seeking refuge in moha.
Not seeking any refuge at all is the greatest merit. Neither fear, nor hope. :sage:
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Hanzze
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Re: Making Merit - or is it craving?

Post by Hanzze »

Yes, as I told. Prouf it when the next electric bill comes.

Refuge in what one is not aware is merly an index of great illusion.
Neither fear, nor hope.
Great saying, who taught you that. :console:
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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