Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:53 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
Length of time in the robes is not a guarantee. Sincere? Studied a great deal? Probably, but there are some serious issues in how he teaches -- and in what he claims about himself -- that raise serious questions.
I think Vimalarsmsi has the right , as does anyone, to critique aspects of teachings he doesn't agree with.
That is not the issue. If his criticisms, as a teacher of other teachers and their methods, were carefully considered and well expressed, that would be one thing, but that is not what we get from him. Take a look at the OP video and we see something rather unpleasant, dismissive and demeaning of the teachers and learned monks with whom he disagrees (not to mention his distortion of the Buddhaghosa story as a way to dismiss the Visuddhimagga). Reprehensible seems to be an accurate description of Vimalaramsi's behavior.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:56 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
Length of time in the robes is not a guarantee. Sincere? Studied a great deal? Probably, but there are some serious issues in how he teaches -- and in what he claims about himself -- that raise serious questions.
I think Vimalarsmsi has the right , as does anyone, to critique aspects of teachings he doesn't agree with.


I agree, Robert.
However, one of the worrying things that people have objected to is Ven V "playing the man and not the ball".
kind regards.

Ben
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby robertk » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:06 am

dear Ben
that might be seen as slightly ironic given the amount of personal comments about the venerable on this thread.

I exchanged dozens or even over a hundred posts with the Ven Vimalaramsi and Khema (his disciple) some 8 years ago in triple gem and found him reasonable in his comments- which he does expand on if asked. We never reached much agreement of course, but that was as much due to my inflexibility regarding the veracity of the ancient Commentaries as anything else.
I just don't see that much difference between him and any other teacher who disputes the classical Theravada, so the apparent venom in this thread seems a tad unfair. Let's move onto the points in dispute and look at those rather than his background.
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:16 am

robertk wrote:I just don't see that much difference between him and any other teacher who disputes the classical Theravada, so the apparent venom in this thread seems a tad unfair.
Not at all unfair.
Let's move onto the points in dispute and look at those rather than his background.
And here is the problem in the OP talk there really are not points of dispute raised in terms of the Visuddhimagga; rather, what we get is a distortion of the Buddhaghosa story as a way of dismissing the Visuddhimagga, and I have already addressed that at some length. And we have stuff like this:


Vimalaramsi wrote:Even today if you go to teachers of one-pointed concentration and ask them: “How does craving arise?” Or you ask them: “What is craving?” They can’t tell you. “Craving is desire.” “Let go of all desire.” [A gesture of ”huh?"] But they are serious; that is what they tell you. I know because I asked many, many very big monks this question and that’s the answer they give me. They don’t know how craving arises; they don’t know how to recognize it when it does arise; they don’t know how to let it go. Now, doesn’t that sound a little bit different from what I am teaching? . . . So, you have to understand I studied the Visuddhimagga for 20 years. I have had very many intelligent teachers [dramatic hand gesture of dismissal].
This leaves something to be desired.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby mirco » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:Access concentration does not stop stuff, including hindrances, from arising.

Can you describe in detail with your own words what happens when you go through access concentration?
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:35 am

mirco wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Access concentration does not stop stuff, including hindrances, from arising.

Can you describe in detail with your own words what happens when you go through access concentration?
I am going to say no to that given that that pushes into an area of talking about personal experience I do not feel comfortable talking about in public, as it were. But let me ask you in turn, were in the suttas does it say that the hindrances do not arise in access concentration?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:08 am

Greetings,

Well, since the suttas don't even mention this "access concentration", that's a going to be a pretty difficult question to answer...

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Well, since the suttas don't even mention this "access concentration", that's a going to be a pretty difficult question to answer...

Metta,
Retro. :)
Given the sutta-only stance of Vimalaramsi, that is kind of the point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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