Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by mirco »

vidar wrote:
This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.
Certainly these are nonsense stories :(
Dhamma Greetings,


Hmmm. What I don't understand is, why should he consciously tell the untruth.
I mean, he had been a Kappiya to Sayadaw Silananda for two years and should know him quite well since that.
Do you really think, this Buddhist monk is a liar?


Be Well, Mirco :-)
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings »

mirco wrote:
vidar wrote:
This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.
Certainly these are nonsense stories :(
Dhamma Greetings,


Hmmm. What I don't understand is, why should he consciously tell the untruth.
I mean, he had been a Kappiya to Sayadaw Silananda for two years and should know him quite well since that.
Do you really think, this Buddhist monk is a liar?


Be Well, Mirco :-)
Good question. Why would he so obviously distort the Buddhaghosa story?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
phil
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by phil »

Ven. Vimalaramsi made a brief appearance at Dhamma Study Group about 6 years ago before quickly slipping away again when he didn't find a reverential audience. Judging from the things he wrote then about meditation that even this beginner could see were not in line with the Buddha's teaching (for example, going through the body to find all points of tension/pain and healing them to have pleasant feeling, which is a nice and probably even effective idea for yoga or some kind of new age therapy but is not Buddhist meditation) it is hard to believe that anything he puts out in the world is not chock full of enough dubious points to make it impossible for a venerable such as Sayadaw U Silananda to accept them, just out of the question. And the video where he claims he can cure AIDS is enough evidence to dismiss that comment, isn't it? On the other hand, maybe Sayadaw U Silananda had enough equanimity to understand that the best way to get rid of the misguided venerable badgering him was to give him a compliment to get him out the door, but unlikely I guess...

BTW, speaking of Sayadaw U Silananda, if anyone would like a great source for Pali study, his bilingual recitation of the parittas is fantastic.

http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scan down for "paritta chanting, Burmese style."
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by legolas »

phil wrote:Ven. Vimalaramsi made a brief appearance at Dhamma Study Group about 6 years ago before quickly slipping away again when he didn't find a reverential audience. Judging from the things he wrote then about meditation that even this beginner could see were not in line with the Buddha's teaching (for example, going through the body to find all points of tension/pain and healing them to have pleasant feeling, which is a nice and probably even effective idea for yoga or some kind of new age therapy but is not Buddhist meditation) it is hard to believe that anything he puts out in the world is not chock full of enough dubious points to make it impossible for a venerable such as Sayadaw U Silananda to accept them, just out of the question......................

......."
I came across the following "new age therapy" .................

'He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


and...............

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#bathman
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by mirco »

:goodpost:
User avatar
phil
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by phil »

legolas wrote:
phil wrote:Ven. Vimalaramsi made a brief appearance at Dhamma Study Group about 6 years ago before quickly slipping away again when he didn't find a reverential audience. Judging from the things he wrote then about meditation that even this beginner could see were not in line with the Buddha's teaching (for example, going through the body to find all points of tension/pain and healing them to have pleasant feeling, which is a nice and probably even effective idea for yoga or some kind of new age therapy but is not Buddhist meditation) it is hard to believe that anything he puts out in the world is not chock full of enough dubious points to make it impossible for a venerable such as Sayadaw U Silananda to accept them, just out of the question......................

......."
I came across the following "new age therapy" .................

'He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


and...............

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#bathman
Hi

Well, not the correct thread to discuss whether my description of what I remember from Ven Vimalaramsi's teaching is in line with a correct understanding of development of jhanas.

In any case, I'm still amazed that he would say what he did about Sayadaw U Silananda. Even on the incredible assumption that it were true, why didn't hiri/otappa and just plain modesty prevent him from declaring it in publlic? Of course anyone who is not yet an Ariyan can be subject to occasions of shameless behaviour, perhaps one struck him as he typed or spoke or however he communicated his words about Sayadaw U SIlananda. (Perhaps one struck me now as I typed, let's hope not.)
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by pilgrim »

mirco wrote:
vidar wrote:
This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.
Certainly these are nonsense stories :(
Dhamma Greetings,

Hmmm. What I don't understand is, why should he consciously tell the untruth.
I mean, he had been a Kappiya to Sayadaw Silananda for two years and should know him quite well since that.
Do you really think, this Buddhist monk is a liar?

Be Well, Mirco :-)
I won't say he's a liar but it seems evident that he's quite liberal with facts... I quote this from his website. http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teacher_background.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I was asked to join the largest Theravadan monastery in Malaysia, which happened to be a Sri Lankan monastery. There, I taught meditation and gave Dhamma talks to many people. Sometimes as many as 500 people would attend these talks."

Travelling monks can just show up at this temple and stay. It's no big deal. Although 500 seems like an unusually large number, it is quite common for crowds of more than a hundred to attend talks when there are foreign speakers

"For about three years, I stayed at the Theravadan temple in Malaysia, and still have over 1000 Malaysian students in varying degrees of deep meditation.".

If there are 1000 students in Malaysia in varying degrees of deep meditation, they must have attained the power of invisibility . :jumping:
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by robertk »

I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
Length of time in the robes is not a guarantee. Sincere? Studied a great deal? Probably, but there are some serious issues in how he teaches -- and in what he claims about himself -- that raise serious questions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
Length of time in the robes is not a guarantee. Sincere? Studied a great deal? Probably, but there are some serious issues in how he teaches -- and in what he claims about himself -- that raise serious questions.
I think Vimalarsmsi has the right , as does anyone, to critique aspects of teachings he doesn't agree with.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
Length of time in the robes is not a guarantee. Sincere? Studied a great deal? Probably, but there are some serious issues in how he teaches -- and in what he claims about himself -- that raise serious questions.
I think Vimalarsmsi has the right , as does anyone, to critique aspects of teachings he doesn't agree with.
That is not the issue. If his criticisms, as a teacher of other teachers and their methods, were carefully considered and well expressed, that would be one thing, but that is not what we get from him. Take a look at the OP video and we see something rather unpleasant, dismissive and demeaning of the teachers and learned monks with whom he disagrees (not to mention his distortion of the Buddhaghosa story as a way to dismiss the Visuddhimagga). Reprehensible seems to be an accurate description of Vimalaramsi's behavior.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by Ben »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
Length of time in the robes is not a guarantee. Sincere? Studied a great deal? Probably, but there are some serious issues in how he teaches -- and in what he claims about himself -- that raise serious questions.
I think Vimalarsmsi has the right , as does anyone, to critique aspects of teachings he doesn't agree with.
I agree, Robert.
However, one of the worrying things that people have objected to is Ven V "playing the man and not the ball".
kind regards.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by robertk »

dear Ben
that might be seen as slightly ironic given the amount of personal comments about the venerable on this thread.

I exchanged dozens or even over a hundred posts with the Ven Vimalaramsi and Khema (his disciple) some 8 years ago in triple gem and found him reasonable in his comments- which he does expand on if asked. We never reached much agreement of course, but that was as much due to my inflexibility regarding the veracity of the ancient Commentaries as anything else.
I just don't see that much difference between him and any other teacher who disputes the classical Theravada, so the apparent venom in this thread seems a tad unfair. Let's move onto the points in dispute and look at those rather than his background.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:I just don't see that much difference between him and any other teacher who disputes the classical Theravada, so the apparent venom in this thread seems a tad unfair.
Not at all unfair.
Let's move onto the points in dispute and look at those rather than his background.
And here is the problem in the OP talk there really are not points of dispute raised in terms of the Visuddhimagga; rather, what we get is a distortion of the Buddhaghosa story as a way of dismissing the Visuddhimagga, and I have already addressed that at some length. And we have stuff like this:

Vimalaramsi wrote:Even today if you go to teachers of one-pointed concentration and ask them: “How does craving arise?” Or you ask them: “What is craving?” They can’t tell you. “Craving is desire.” “Let go of all desire.” [A gesture of ”huh?"] But they are serious; that is what they tell you. I know because I asked many, many very big monks this question and that’s the answer they give me. They don’t know how craving arises; they don’t know how to recognize it when it does arise; they don’t know how to let it go. Now, doesn’t that sound a little bit different from what I am teaching? . . . So, you have to understand I studied the Visuddhimagga for 20 years. I have had very many intelligent teachers [dramatic hand gesture of dismissal].
This leaves something to be desired.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by mirco »

tiltbillings wrote:Access concentration does not stop stuff, including hindrances, from arising.
Can you describe in detail with your own words what happens when you go through access concentration?
Post Reply