the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey Ben


I dont see rebirth as being part of Buddhadhamma so what i wrote on that forum was correct (in line with my own view) that there is no rebirth pm in the buddhas teachings



Any question about rebirth after death im agnostic towards because i do not know either way atm, maybe so maybe not (although as i said i lean slightly towards no than yes)


I think confusion arises due to how i personally take rebirth. To me questions about rebirth after death etc are the same as questions about gods and heaven etc, outside buddhadhamma for me. Buddhadhamma and rebirth are seperate "things" in my view


Its not in the buddhadhamma for me (4nt, NEFP). As to if such a thing occurs then i dont know

Does that help?

Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Guy wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I dont do that, as i said i have an agnostic attitude. However based on probability my current thinking is leaning more towards a no than a yes (only slightly however)
Where are you getting these probabilities from?

The main one is i dont really see what can continue
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi all,

I have two small points I would like to make. Please bear in mind that this is Laura's_personal_interpretation. Feedback is welcomed.

First, for those who take exception to the path and its fruit being the same, how would you distinguish the path from its fruit? In theory, sure, it could be defined. But in real practice, I think it's indistinguishable.

**Edited to delete paragraph two. I think my comments on birth vs. rebirth are irrelevant and out of place. Sorry about that.

Kindly,
Laura
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Laura,
Ngawang Drolma wrote:First, for those who take exception to the path and its fruit being the same, how would you distinguish the path from its fruit?
I think it's really those who assert that the two things are one who have some explaining to do.

In the Abhidhamma the terms 'path' and 'fruition' refer to two separate moments of consciousness. The path-consciousness is a kamma and the fruition-consciousness is its vipaka. Since the fruition-consciousness arises after the path-consciousness has passed away (i.e., it's not a case of one consciousness changing into another) they are properly counted as two, not one. The only sense I can see in which they might be regarded as one is that they both take Nibbana as their object.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi Dhammanando Bhikkhu,

What if I said that I agree that the two are specific and different by definition, but indistinguishable in experience?
Like in the same way that it's difficult to distinguish between karmic fruit and conditions in practice.

Kindly,
Laura
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Laura,
Ngawang Drolma wrote:What if I said that I agree that the two are specific and different by definition, but indistinguishable in experience?
It is inconceivable that the sort of person in whom the path and fruition consciousnesses arise would be unable to distinguish them. With path and fruition consciousnesses we are not talking about any ordinary person, but about one in whom the faculties of sati and paññā have been developed to the level of strong insight and who is on the threshold of the ariyan plane.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

I dont see rebirth as being part of Buddhadhamma so what i wrote on that forum was correct (in line with my own view) that there is no rebirth pm in the buddhas teachings
Which is fine, if you identify it as your own view, but to say that there is no rebirth in Buddhism without that qualification is to not safe guard the truth given that traditionaly that is not the case.

Also, you claim that there is no rebirth in Buddhism is not supported by the teachings, given how much of the teachings you have simply ignored.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Laura,
Ngawang Drolma wrote:What if I said that I agree that the two are specific and different by definition, but indistinguishable in experience?
It is inconceivable that the sort of person in whom the path and fruition consciousnesses arise would be unable to distinguish them. With path and fruition consciousnesses we are not talking about any ordinary person, but about one in whom the faculties of sati and paññā have been developed to the level of strong insight and who is on the threshold of the ariyan plane.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
I see, thanks very much.

Kindly,
Laura
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
I dont see rebirth as being part of Buddhadhamma so what i wrote on that forum was correct (in line with my own view) that there is no rebirth pm in the buddhas teachings
Which is fine, if you identify it as your own view, but to say that there is no rebirth in Buddhism without that qualification is to not safe guard the truth given that traditionaly that is not the case.

yes it is my view of buddhadhamma however im not the only one, there are many other lay buddhists who are of the same opinion as well as monks. Its not the case that i have made something up or tailored buddhadhamma to suite me, my understanding comes from what i have learnt from the texts, exp, advice (from people who hold rebirth and those who dont) and Ajhans. From what i have learnt rebirth isnt in the Buddhadhamma

Also, you claim that there is no rebirth in Buddhism is not supported by the teachings, given how much of the teachings you have simply ignored
This has been discussed at great length in this thread already so i wont try to support my view again

Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ben »

clw_uk wrote:
Also, you claim that there is no rebirth in Buddhism is not supported by the teachings, given how much of the teachings you have simply ignored
This has been discussed at great length in this thread already so i wont try to support my view again

Metta
Craig, I don't think I have ever seen you support your claim with evidence taken directly from the Tipitaka. Since you are claiming that rebirth does not exist within the Buddhadhamma, can you provide any evidence that the Buddha or his chief disciples refuted post-mortem rebirth?
Kind regards

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
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but great rivers flow silently.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
I dont see rebirth as being part of Buddhadhamma so what i wrote on that forum was correct (in line with my own view) that there is no rebirth pm in the buddhas teachings
Which is fine, if you identify it as your own view, but to say that there is no rebirth in Buddhism without that qualification is to not safe guard the truth given that traditionally that is not the case.

yes it is my view of buddhadhamma however im not the only one, there are many other lay buddhists who are of the same opinion as well as monks. Its not the case that i have made something up or tailored buddhadhamma to suite me, my understanding comes from what i have learnt from the texts, exp, advice (from people who hold rebirth and those who dont) and Ajhans. From what i have learnt rebirth isnt in the Buddhadhamma
That you are not the only one, and even though idiosyncratic monks such as Buddhadasa voice points of view not consistent with the tradition and not consistent with the texts, the truth of the matter is that you cannot truthfully say the Buddhadhamma is without rebirth without seriously qualifying your statement.

Also, you claim that there is no rebirth in Buddhism is not supported by the teachings, given how much of the teachings you have simply ignored
This has been discussed at great length in this thread already so i wont try to support my view again
Except you simply ignored texts that were presented to you that showed rebirth in terms of the Four Noble Truths and paticcasamuppada, which you said did not exist, and you ignored them, did not at all reply to them
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

I found this quite interesting:
Reincarnation is Now a Scientifically Acceptable Phenomenon - by Dr. Granville Dharmawardena, University of Colombo
in a Set of articles collected by Bhikku Bodhi researching Buddhist assumptions on reincarnation, scientific evidence supporting this and related subjects.
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/reinc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
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Guy
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Guy »

clw_uk wrote:
Guy wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I dont do that, as i said i have an agnostic attitude. However based on probability my current thinking is leaning more towards a no than a yes (only slightly however)
Where are you getting these probabilities from?

The main one is i dont really see what can continue
It is the stream of consciousness that continues. Yes, consciousness is impermanent but on the other hand there is a continuum. This can be noticed in this very life. There are different levels of consciousness, different objects to be conscious of, different ways in which consciousness operates but even though none of these instances of consciousness are static, unchanging or permanent one "mind moment" can have a residual effect to the next and the different kinds of consciousness can and do influence each other. If you can understand this then it's not such a problem to see that rebirth is a possibility even though anatta and anicca are true.

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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zavk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by zavk »

Chris wrote:Hello all,

I found this quite interesting:
Reincarnation is Now a Scientifically Acceptable Phenomenon - by Dr. Granville Dharmawardena, University of Colombo
in a Set of articles collected by Bhikku Bodhi researching Buddhist assumptions on reincarnation, scientific evidence supporting this and related subjects.
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/reinc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
Hmmm.... I wonder what Dawkins et al. would make of this? Perhaps, it's time for a new book and more documentaries. :tongue:
With metta,
zavk
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atulo
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by atulo »

:oops:
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