The use of "Bhante"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by gavesako »

Regarding "bhikkhu", compare this article:
why do so few Buddhist monks call themselves “bhikkhu” ?!
for more quotes from the suttas on the topic of “right livelihood of a bhikkhu”, have a look at this little book, which provides a long collection of similar passages from the Suttas, all strung together from the moment of entering the Order until attainment of arahantship, in the words of the Buddha:

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2012/01 ... eggarmonk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:broke:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
BKh
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:43 am

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by BKh »

gavesako wrote:Regarding "bhikkhu", compare this article:...
The translation from the Itivuttaka on that page is misleading, especially in regards to the current discussion...
It91/3.42 wrote:“Bhikkhus, this is contemptible means of subsistence, this gathering of alms. In the world, bhikkhus, it is a form of abuse to say “You alms-gatherer(bhikkhu) ! Wandering about clutching a begging bowl!’
“antamidaṁ, bhikkhave, jīvikānaṁ yadidaṁ piṇḍolyaṁ. abhisāpoyaṁ {abhisāpāyaṁ (sī.), abhilāpāyaṁ (syā. pī.), abhisapāyaṁ (ka.)}, bhikkhave, lokasmiṁ — ‘piṇḍolo vicarasi pattapāṇī’ti.
The English is giving "bhikkhu" as a gloss for "piṇḍolo" which is deceptive. I don't think "bhikkhu" is ever used as a form of abuse in the canon. The monks are often abused, but I don't think it is done by simply calling them bhikkhus as this translation would imply.
| One sutta per day to your inbox | ReadingFaithfully.org Support for reading the Suttas | Citation lookup helper | Instant sutta name lookup | Instant PED lookup | Instant DPPN lookup |
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: The title 'Ajahn'

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

BKh wrote:Don't you mean "third person"? Isn't the second example second person?

Is Bhikkhu ever used as a title along with a name in the canon?
Yes. I should have said "third person" — I have corrected my post.

Yes to the second point too. Collectively, in almost every sutta the Buddha addresses the monks as "bhikkhave," and in other places where, for example, he is referring to a particular bhikkhu by name, e.g. in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttaṃ when telling the bhikkhus to invite the bhikkhu Sāti to come and see him:
“Ehi tvaṃ bhikkhu, mama vacanena sātiṃ bhikkhuṃ kevaṭṭaputtaṃ āmantehi
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The title 'Ajahn'

Post by danieLion »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...Collectively, in almost every sutta the Buddha addresses the monks as "bhikkhave," and in other places where, for example, he is referring to a particular bhikkhu by name, e.g. in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttaṃ when telling the bhikkhus to invite the bhikkhu Sāti to come and see him:
“Ehi tvaṃ bhikkhu, mama vacanena sātiṃ bhikkhuṃ kevaṭṭaputtaṃ āmantehi
Hi Bhikkhu Pesala,
Do you know why there's a differentiation of usage with "Bhikkhu"? That is, why is there a difference in usage about where "Bhikkhu" is placed in the title? For example, at the beginning, as in Bhikkhu Bodhi, or at the end, as in Thanissaro Bhikkhu?

I've also noticed with Bhuddhadasa, for instance, that depending on the publication he's sometimes "Ajahn" and sometimes "Bhikkhu"?

I've inferred from all this that there's a lot of room for personalization. Is this accurate?
Kind regards,
Daniel
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by Sylvester »

And yet, despite the grammatical injunctions regarding the vocative "bhante", King Milinda addressed Ven Nagasena by "Bhante Nagasena", eg -
Atha kho milindo rājā āyasmantaṃ nāgasenaṃ etadavoca ‘‘sace, bhante nāgasena, puggalo nūpalabbhati, ko carahi tumhākaṃ cīvarapiṇḍapātasenāsanagilānappaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ deti, ko taṃ paribhuñjati, ko sīlaṃ rakkhati, ko bhāvanamanuyuñjati, ....
I wonder if the good venerable corrected the king's Pali. :tongue:
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: The title 'Ajahn'

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

danieLion wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...Collectively, in almost every sutta the Buddha addresses the monks as "bhikkhave," and in other places where, for example, he is referring to a particular bhikkhu by name, e.g. in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttaṃ when telling the bhikkhus to invite the bhikkhu Sāti to come and see him:
“Ehi tvaṃ bhikkhu, mama vacanena sātiṃ bhikkhuṃ kevaṭṭaputtaṃ āmantehi
Hi Bhikkhu Pesala,
Do you know why there's a differentiation of usage with "Bhikkhu"? That is, why is there a difference in usage about where "Bhikkhu" is placed in the title? For example, at the beginning, as in Bhikkhu Bodhi, or at the end, as in Thanissaro Bhikkhu?

I've also noticed with Bhuddhadasa, for instance, that depending on the publication he's sometimes "Ajahn" and sometimes "Bhikkhu"?

I've inferred from all this that there's a lot of room for personalization. Is this accurate?
Kind regards,
Daniel
Pesala would know better but I think that it's more common in Thailand to be "monastic name Bhikkhu" rather than the "Bhikkhu monastic name." Buddhadasa himself is usually refered to as Buddhadasa Bhikkhu.

Ajahn just means teacher in Thai.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I don't know why the word order is different — I don't think word order matters much in Pāli since the case ending of a word defines its role as subject, object, etc.

I think it works better in an English sentence if the title is first — if we were to translate "bhikkhu" as "Venerable", then: we would say "Venerable Pesala isn't a Pāli scholar," not "Pesala Venerable isn't a Pāli scholar."
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
santisasana
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 11:41 am

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by santisasana »

Bhante,

Thank you for sharing the knowledge.
The Burmese words "Saya" or "Sayādaw" (royal teacher) are also derived from the same Pāl word (ca in Burmese is pronounced as sa). Burmese nuns are addressed as "Sayalay" and female meditation teachers are addressed as "Sayama" while male lay teachers are addressed as "Sayagyi."
If I may add some more precision...
In the Burmese tradition, elder nuns may be adressed as 'sayagyi' and younger ones as 'sayalay' ("gyi' conveying the meaning of big/great and 'lay' the meaning of small).
It is the way I heard these terms used in Burmese monasteries.

Metta
A buddhist nun
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by Ben »

Greetings Ven Santisasana,
santisasana wrote:Bhante,

Thank you for sharing the knowledge.
The Burmese words "Saya" or "Sayādaw" (royal teacher) are also derived from the same Pāl word (ca in Burmese is pronounced as sa). Burmese nuns are addressed as "Sayalay" and female meditation teachers are addressed as "Sayama" while male lay teachers are addressed as "Sayagyi."
If I may add some more precision...
In the Burmese tradition, elder nuns may be adressed as 'sayagyi' and younger ones as 'sayalay' ("gyi' conveying the meaning of big/great and 'lay' the meaning of small).
It is the way I heard these terms used in Burmese monasteries.

Metta
A buddhist nun
What is the correct form of address for a Thilashin?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
santisasana
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 11:41 am

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by santisasana »

Dear Ben,

In Burma, the thilashin are adressed simply by 'sayalay' or 'sayagyi'.



Metta
User avatar
Ytrog
Posts: 702
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands, near Deventer

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by Ytrog »

I have a small question connected with the topic: is it pronounced with a long or a short ending? I've heard both bhantè and bhanté.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: The use of "Bhante"

Post by gavesako »

It is long ("teh").
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Post Reply