Samatha to See Gods.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
whynotme
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by whynotme »

Son wrote: Most of them seem pretty normal size. The one that greeted us was somewhat over 7 feet tall with very large eyes. The devi I meet at the creek was small like a young girl. The devi who led me further back was about 6 feet tall. However where I used to live, there was a darker skinned deva who was almost twice my height and size. So they seem to vary in size, as well as beauty, luminance, and ability. Some of them live on the ground while I've seen others in the air, and of course many tree devas.

Yes, I've seen a few pretas. They're not helpful in any way. They either make people feel bad or cause harm, and to see them is very unpleasant.

I think some of them use English just because they can, but they seem to have their own sort of special language that they all understand. This was clear in our conversation with an asura which was sometimes very strange to translate. As though he wasn't able to use English well.
Many thanks,

I think that at very least, you could teach them proper English, then teach them how to use computer and register an account here to discuss with us (joke)

Back on topic, have you been to asian countries like Thai, Sri Lanka, India, Burma? I think if you could travel there (where Buddhism is well known) you might see devas with different attitudes to dhamma as well as you could ask them about many things outside of a normal human knowledge (that relate to dhamma). Even you could bring a bridge between religion and modern science if you can have a steady communication with them and have the understanding of each other. Again, this could help many many more people even in the modern world if you can do such a job.

And your attitude bring people a lesson, the Buddha taught about respect devas, and you bow to them even they are inferior in the dhamma understanding, such a good attitude worth a mention. You indeed did good job in the past that let you enjoy an earth god life and then have divine eye in human form. You have good intention, I hope you the best on your way.

Regards.
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whynotme
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by whynotme »

I always like the idea that bring science and religion closer. Imagine if someone, not only Son but may be anyone with ability to communicate with devas could convince some of them to take some kind of scientific measurements and experiments. I.e what material made their body, how to translate concepts from Buddhism to modern language, i.e what and where is sineru, where do brahmas live in space? Where is the hell?.. If it can be done it will make a revolution in mankind's knowledge. Maybe bigger and more beneficial than the invention of PC, internet or whatever invention of mankind's history.
Ever see any nagas?

I see one almost every time I visit a certain spring. It is very long and thick
Dear Son,
How long and thick he is?

Regards
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Son
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by Son »

whynotme wrote:I always like the idea that bring science and religion closer. Imagine if someone, not only Son but may be anyone with ability to communicate with devas could convince some of them to take some kind of scientific measurements and experiments. I.e what material made their body, how to translate concepts from Buddhism to modern language, i.e what and where is sineru, where do brahmas live in space? Where is the hell?.. If it can be done it will make a revolution in mankind's knowledge. Maybe bigger and more beneficial than the invention of PC, internet or whatever invention of mankind's history.
Ever see any nagas?

I see one almost every time I visit a certain spring. It is very long and thick
Dear Son,
How long and thick he is?

Regards
Like a big tree trunk, and probably about as long as a tree as well. These ideas have occurred to me as well throughout my life. However I wonder why the other people in Thailand for example who see devas have not accomplished any of these things yet. In fact, there seem to be no stories or published experiments involving experience with devas in this way. Supposedly monks in Thailand speak with devas, especially in the jungle, but where is this information being shared...? I'm not sure it is. Why? This is what puzzled me. I spoke to the devi who lives outside my friends house last night. She did not know what Dharma was or who Buddhas are. Sometimes, as I understand it, the reason devas are so disinterested in humans and why we can hardly see them or talk to them is because they experience time so much slower than we do (ergo, their minds are much faster and more refined). It was almost like it was annoying for her to even listen to what I was saying, and yet she appreciated the wisdom of Buddha and asked me to come back.

At any rate, these are interesting questions, we'll keep in touch.


http://abhayagiri.ehclients.com/pdf/books/BioMunAll.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Until it blooms above.
whynotme
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by whynotme »

Son wrote:
whynotme wrote:I always like the idea that bring science and religion closer. Imagine if someone, not only Son but may be anyone with ability to communicate with devas could convince some of them to take some kind of scientific measurements and experiments. I.e what material made their body, how to translate concepts from Buddhism to modern language, i.e what and where is sineru, where do brahmas live in space? Where is the hell?.. If it can be done it will make a revolution in mankind's knowledge. Maybe bigger and more beneficial than the invention of PC, internet or whatever invention of mankind's history.
Ever see any nagas?

I see one almost every time I visit a certain spring. It is very long and thick
Dear Son,
How long and thick he is?

Regards
Like a big tree trunk, and probably about as long as a tree as well. These ideas have occurred to me as well throughout my life. However I wonder why the other people in Thailand for example who see devas have not accomplished any of these things yet. In fact, there seem to be no stories or published experiments involving experience with devas in this way. Supposedly monks in Thailand speak with devas, especially in the jungle, but where is this information being shared...? I'm not sure it is. Why? This is what puzzled me. I spoke to the devi who lives outside my friends house last night. She did not know what Dharma was or who Buddhas are. Sometimes, as I understand it, the reason devas are so disinterested in humans and why we can hardly see them or talk to them is because they experience time so much slower than we do (ergo, their minds are much faster and more refined). It was almost like it was annoying for her to even listen to what I was saying, and yet she appreciated the wisdom of Buddha and asked me to come back.

At any rate, these are interesting questions, we'll keep in touch.


http://abhayagiri.ehclients.com/pdf/books/BioMunAll.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many thanks,

I haven't been to Thai or Sri Lanka or other Therevada countries. In my country, Vietnam, AFAIK, some people may see something but they are extremely poor at science and even dhamma, and they let their ego play a big part in the explanation. Some people may see it accurately, but it seems they aren't establish any bridge between them and devas, they just saw, that's all, then they focused on the Nirvana, I guess. And even normal people don't believe them, or don't know whom to believe to because there are many traditions and explanations, let alone scientists. Not every country has a good education system as US or not every person has science background or is interested in scientific explanation, especially Asian countries. And I doubt if you tell this to a scientist in your country and they will easily believe in you.

Well, do those beings believe in rebirth? I think you could tell your story that you were a god as them then reborn as human, maybe it will attract their attention for their own benefit.

Regards.
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Son
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by Son »

whynotme wrote: Many thanks,

I haven't been to Thai or Sri Lanka or other Therevada countries. In my country, Vietnam, AFAIK, some people may see something but they are extremely poor at science and even dhamma, and they let their ego play a big part in the explanation. Some people may see it accurately, but it seems they aren't establish any bridge between them and devas, they just saw, that's all, then they focused on the Nirvana, I guess. And even normal people don't believe them, or don't know whom to believe to because there are many traditions and explanations, let alone scientists. Not every country has a good education system as US or not every person has science background or is interested in scientific explanation, especially Asian countries. And I doubt if you tell this to a scientist in your country and they will easily believe in you.

Well, do those beings believe in rebirth? I think you could tell your story that you were a god as them then reborn as human, maybe it will attract their attention for their own benefit.

Regards.
You're correct. Although many schools in America are just a joke unfortunately.

Some of them are simply aware of rebirth because they can see it, with the divine eye. Others haven't seemed to notice... And then naturally there are beings who are inclined to resist the idea altogether. I have never told a deva that story. Not sure but I'll let you know.

Now... to the problem of evicting an asura from this place. Negotiation was already attempted and now we're seriously planning on evicting him. Does anyone have any sources, references, or experience in evicting or expelling asuras from a house or an object of influence?
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rowyourboat
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Son,

Try the meditation below:

"[6] "Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta

Matheesha
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Son
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by Son »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Son,

Try the meditation below:

"[6] "Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta

Matheesha
You're saying positive samatha absorption will urge him to leave? Or is this to be effected in some other way?
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whynotme
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

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Just out of curiosity, do they cast shadow on the ground or another object? I mean are they transparent/opaque in visible light?

Regards.
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Son
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

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whynotme wrote:Just out of curiosity, do they cast shadow on the ground or another object? I mean are they transparent/opaque in visible light?

Regards.
I don't know about translucent, but they exist with their own luminance. They have form and that includes solidity. I suppose you would say they're somewhat opaque. You can see what is behind them but that is because of gross light meeting your eyes. You see the deva with the divine eye, which is perceiving form and has the contact of eye-sight-consciousness. It's difficult to describe because unlike the fleshy eye, the divine eye does not see obscurations. I suppose the opaqueness depends on how focused you are in your divine sight at the time and how clearly they are revealing themselves to you. However in themselves they are not really translucent at all. This is a question of view.
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It's cold and alone, hopeless.
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whynotme
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by whynotme »

Son wrote:
whynotme wrote:Just out of curiosity, do they cast shadow on the ground or another object? I mean are they transparent/opaque in visible light?

Regards.
I don't know about translucent, but they exist with their own luminance. They have form and that includes solidity. I suppose you would say they're somewhat opaque. You can see what is behind them but that is because of gross light meeting your eyes. You see the deva with the divine eye, which is perceiving form and has the contact of eye-sight-consciousness. It's difficult to describe because unlike the fleshy eye, the divine eye does not see obscurations. I suppose the opaqueness depends on how focused you are in your divine sight at the time and how clearly they are revealing themselves to you. However in themselves they are not really translucent at all. This is a question of view.
No, I think they are opaque and solid to divine eye. What I meant is something like this, transparent in one view but opaque in another view. Sillicon is transparent in infra red but opaque in normal light. Similarity, I want to ask that Devas are supposed opaque to divine eye but do they interact with normal light, i.e create shadow on the ground when they are block the light source, i.e the sun (in the scientific manner).

I just want to ask do they create any shadow on the ground when they appear? If there isn't any shadow on the ground then they don't interact with normal light even when revealing themselves. If so, one must try other wavelengths to capture their image, i.e infra red, ultra violet, x-ray.. Or they don't interact with any electromagnetic radiation at all

Below is a picture of a silicon wafer, under visible light, it blocks and reflects like a mirror, but under infra red, you can see through it like glass (see the light under it)

Image

Regards
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Son
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by Son »

whynotme wrote:
Son wrote:
whynotme wrote:Just out of curiosity, do they cast shadow on the ground or another object? I mean are they transparent/opaque in visible light?

Regards.
I don't know about translucent, but they exist with their own luminance. They have form and that includes solidity. I suppose you would say they're somewhat opaque. You can see what is behind them but that is because of gross light meeting your eyes. You see the deva with the divine eye, which is perceiving form and has the contact of eye-sight-consciousness. It's difficult to describe because unlike the fleshy eye, the divine eye does not see obscurations. I suppose the opaqueness depends on how focused you are in your divine sight at the time and how clearly they are revealing themselves to you. However in themselves they are not really translucent at all. This is a question of view.
No, I think they are opaque and solid to divine eye. What I meant is something like this, transparent in one view but opaque in another view. Sillicon is transparent in infra red but opaque in normal light. Similarity, I want to ask that Devas are supposed opaque to divine eye but do they interact with normal light, i.e create shadow on the ground when they are block the light source, i.e the sun (in the scientific manner).

I just want to ask do they create any shadow on the ground when they appear? If there isn't any shadow on the ground then they don't interact with normal light even when revealing themselves. If so, one must try other wavelengths to capture their image, i.e infra red, ultra violet, x-ray.. Or they don't interact with any electromagnetic radiation at all.
I can't say that they do not interact with electromagnetic radiation at all. This is very delicate and interesting analysis and is probably much easier for intellectually inclined devas. No, devas don't cast shadows. They have their own subtle light. It's not made of photons so photons pass right through their body. Otherwise people would see them, or even if they were vibrating too quickly, they would show up at least sometimes in photographs. In theory. In practice, they do not have shadows fair and square. Some of them can look and touch in several directions at once, generating multiple faces or arms, indicating a lack of divine luminescent obscurity in general, but not ruling it out as a possibility. In short, since you do not see a deva with the flesh eye, which perceives shadows and electromagnetic radiation, there is no possibility of a shadow. What's more, they cannot block out the sunlight physically.

Image
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rowyourboat
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi son

I posted the extract from the Mahanama sutta so that you could perhaps do something useful in a dhammic sense with your ability.
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whynotme
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by whynotme »

Son wrote: I can't say that they do not interact with electromagnetic radiation at all. This is very delicate and interesting analysis and is probably much easier for intellectually inclined devas. No, devas don't cast shadows. They have their own subtle light. It's not made of photons so photons pass right through their body. Otherwise people would see them, or even if they were vibrating too quickly, they would show up at least sometimes in photographs. In theory. In practice, they do not have shadows fair and square. Some of them can look and touch in several directions at once, generating multiple faces or arms, indicating a lack of divine luminescent obscurity in general, but not ruling it out as a possibility. In short, since you do not see a deva with the flesh eye, which perceives shadows and electromagnetic radiation, there is no possibility of a shadow. What's more, they cannot block out the sunlight physically.
Thank you.
So how do devas interact with physical objects? I.e have you seen naga swimming? Does he create waves by movements of his body or he just go through the water? Do devas movement limited by physical objects like wall, tree or they just go through those objects?
If a deva lifts a stone, a normal person will just see it as floating?

Regards.
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Son
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by Son »

whynotme wrote:
Son wrote: I can't say that they do not interact with electromagnetic radiation at all. This is very delicate and interesting analysis and is probably much easier for intellectually inclined devas. No, devas don't cast shadows. They have their own subtle light. It's not made of photons so photons pass right through their body. Otherwise people would see them, or even if they were vibrating too quickly, they would show up at least sometimes in photographs. In theory. In practice, they do not have shadows fair and square. Some of them can look and touch in several directions at once, generating multiple faces or arms, indicating a lack of divine luminescent obscurity in general, but not ruling it out as a possibility. In short, since you do not see a deva with the flesh eye, which perceives shadows and electromagnetic radiation, there is no possibility of a shadow. What's more, they cannot block out the sunlight physically.
Thank you.
So how do devas interact with physical objects? I.e have you seen naga swimming? Does he create waves by movements of his body or he just go through the water? Do devas movement limited by physical objects like wall, tree or they just go through those objects?
If a deva lifts a stone, a normal person will just see it as floating?

Regards.
The same laws apply. They are not subject to our physical matter, but rather their own. Just as they don't react to electromagnetic radiation (which is actually just derived from matter), they don't react to any physical matter. At this point it is very useful to have insight into the four (six) elements as they apply to quantum physics and subatomic particles. When I saw the naga in the water, he did not interact with the water, he was just there in his own way like other devas. They do feel the water, but they have subtle form so it doesn't affect the water like we do or animals. There is both gross and subtle solidity, fluidity, motion, etc., as the Buddha insinuated. Solidity applies molecularly, subatomically, and subtly. It even applies to fundamental form as in the rupaloka devas. In essence, "water" to the naga is not "water" to us, it's subtle and not gross.


Venturing into theory now, in my opinion if a deva were to lift a stone, well that would mean that they're somehow affecting the composition of the stone so that it inherits subtle qualities that affect the stone's gross physicality. But I wouldn't wonder about that much because it's very speculative and theoretical.
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whynotme
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Post by whynotme »

Many thanks,

What happened to the asura you want to evict? Is he in your house? Is he gone now?

I remember in Vinaya a monk had problems with non human being, many cures didn't help, then he went to abattoir and drunk blood, it helped and then the Buddha allowed it in similar cases. It seemed that asuras or devas in general hate and go away of disgusting, stinking, dirty things. Anyway, in a harsh situation, hope everyone have the will and found a way to bear it

Regards.
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