New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

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mikenz66
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi cittaanurakkho,
cittaanurakkho wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:It would be highly inaccurate to describe any of the teachers that have been mentioned in this thread as teaching their students no more than "just watch what comes up".
I have read only a few pages of Ven. T. new book. So I search the whole book for "just watch what comes up" and found none.
I meant that as a summary, not a verbatim quote.
See the quotes I gave here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p201464" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and read the rest of Chapter 4.

:anjali:
Mike
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gavesako
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by gavesako »

Dmytro wrote:Thank you, Richard, quite an interesting book.

Ven. Thanissaro, as always, presents an unexpected perspective on Buddha's teaching, with strong basis in meditative experience.

Even though in some cases I disagree with him, thanks to the careful Sutta references he makes, I can read the sources and enhance the understanding of the Teaching.

What also amazes me is Ven. Thanissaro's sincerity and compassion. He won't put up with the mispresentations of the Buddha's teaching he finds, so he straightforwardly addresses the issue. This takes a lot of courage and honesty.
I agree but not sure about the "compassion" motivation: some people love proving others wrong and engaging in doctrinal combat.

:soap:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Thank you, Richard, quite an interesting book.

Ven. Thanissaro, as always, presents an unexpected perspective on Buddha's teaching, with strong basis in meditative experience.

Even though in some cases I disagree with him, thanks to the careful Sutta references he makes, I can read the sources and enhance the understanding of the Teaching.

What also amazes me is Ven. Thanissaro's sincerity and compassion. He won't put up with the mispresentations of the Buddha's teaching he finds, so he straightforwardly addresses the issue. This takes a lot of courage and honesty.
Ven Thanissaro is the sole arbiter of what are the Buddha's teachings?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:Ven Thanissaro is the sole arbiter of what are the Buddha's teachings?
Taking a more general view, this touches on what I find difficult about non-face-to-face teachings and discussions in general. Unlike my experiences with real-life teachers and spiritual friends, there is this undercurrent that there is One True Dhamma, and, dammit, we're going to prove we've got it.

I very much value that I have the opportunity to learn from the Buddha, the experience of the ancients, and the experience of a variety of modern teachers. I continue to read/listen to teachers such as Ven Thanissaro, because I value his experience and analysis. However, I tend to have more respect for the teachers who simply present their interpretation of the Dhamma, and end by apologising if they have misrepresented the Dhamma in any way (which is a very common approach among the teachers whom I have encountered).

:anjali:
Mike
danieLion
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by danieLion »

All,
I've "cleaned up" my posts here starting with this one:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 38#p201420" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This does not mean I disapprove of the discussion; just the way I handled it.

Best,
Daniel
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Dan74
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Dan74 »

mikenz66 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ven Thanissaro is the sole arbiter of what are the Buddha's teachings?
Taking a more general view, this touches on what I find difficult about non-face-to-face teachings and discussions in general. Unlike my experiences with real-life teachers and spiritual friends, there is this undercurrent that there is One True Dhamma, and, dammit, we're going to prove we've got it.

I very much value that I have the opportunity to learn from the Buddha, the experience of the ancients, and the experience of a variety of modern teachers. I continue to read/listen to teachers such as Ven Thanissaro, because I value his experience and analysis. However, I tend to have more respect for the teachers who simply present their interpretation of the Dhamma, and end by apologising if they have misrepresented the Dhamma in any way (which is a very common approach among the teachers whom I have encountered).

:anjali:
Mike
:goodpost:
_/|\_
cittaanurakkho
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by cittaanurakkho »

tiltbillings wrote:
cittaanurakkho wrote:
Guys, read the book. An Introduction at least...
Tilt,
I think you have misassigned the above quote to me.
I quoted but did not write the above line, it was piotr post.
tiltbillings wrote: It has already been shown by Mike here that Ven Thanissaro has taken out of context the quotes he used. The "bare attention" teachers being quoted here are far more sophisticated than how Ven Thanissaro is portraying them, and the criticisms are a bit broadly drawn. I suspect a fair amount of what Ven T is saying is directed at Ven Analayo's book, SATIPATTHANA, but given that Ven Analayo's book is a carefully done effort by scholar-monk of no small ability, I am not convinced by Ven Thanissaro's brushing aside approach.
Thanks for the clarification.
In this case, I will continue to assume the honesty of Ven. T, read the book, and find out for myself what he is getting at.
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retrofuturist
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Second, my aim in quoting these passages is to focus not on individuals but on the general features and
underlying misconceptions of the common view. I realize that leaving one’s sources unnamed is not in line with modern practices, but I can state honestly that I have tried to find passages that give the clearest and most responsible expression of the common view so as to highlight its salient features. I hope that you, the reader, will understand why I have handled these quotations in this way.
In reading this, it seems that one could take Thanissaro Bhikkhu at face value. Alternatively, one could read the book through a lens of "attack" and "defend".

Given that, as Frankie Goes To Hollywood pointed out back in the early 80's, "When two tribes go to war, a point is all that you can score", there's probably more practical value for the reader in accepting Thanissaro Bhikkhus terms of engagement.

Either that or simply put the book down if those terms of engagement are unacceptable to the reader. No one is forcing anyone to read anything, after all, and he is not charging you anything for it.

To read beyond that Introduction simply to complain that it's not how we would have done it, that we demand scholastic citations, that we take offence to certain perceived caricatures, or that we would prefer otherwise in terms of a book on mindfulness seems like an exercise in futility, completely devoid of utility and metta.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:To read beyond that Introduction simply to complain that it's not how we would have done it, that we demand scholastic citations, that we take offence to certain perceived caricatures, or that we would prefer otherwise in terms of a book on mindfulness seems like an exercise in futility, completely devoid of utility and metta.
Thank gawd that does not fit what i have done.

I have learned a very long time ago there is considerable value and things to learn in reading well done, carefully considered critiques of the school of thought that one might hold to, which is why I took the time to read through what Ven Thanissaro had to say. As an expostion of his particular take on meditation it is interesting, but as a critique of the vipassana school, it is neither well done, nor carefully considered, and if anything, it could be sadly and unnecessarily destructive of one's confidence in one's practice. And what is the point of that?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Anagarika »

Ajahn Geoff is a serious scholar, and as I mentioned in another post, I've visited with him, and understood that he is friendly, generous and very caring, but he is also a very serious man. One of the people at Wat Metta mentioned to me that Ajahn Geoff had written on the subject of dana, and was seen as critical of some institutions that charged big fees for seminars and the like. Turns out, some of these seminar sponsors did not invite him back to speak, perhaps offended that Ajahn Geoff took a shot at their placing profits before Dhamma. The point being that Ven. Thanissaro is a man of deep principle, and you're not likely to get much of a soft shoe dance from him when discussing Dhamma. I for one, am glad that he is such a vigorous and vibrant force, as we need scholars like him to set the bar. I also happened to disagree with his brief that he published in support of the Thai Sangha vs. the Ajahn Brahm ordination of Bhikkhunis. It took some courage to write the brief that he did, and while I opposed his position, and support that taken by Bhikkhu Bodhi on that issue, the point I'm trying to make is that I'm glad that Ajahn Geoff has the gumption to weigh in on difficult issues without worrying that he will offend some folks.

To make his point, he must have felt that the segments quoted needed to be "called on the carpet," without naming any of the perceived offenders. I imagine he has sat for many months watching the erosion of the vipassana approach to practice taking place via the so=called 'mindfulness movement', and felt the need to fire away.

Agree with him or not, he keeps the Dhamma fires burning.
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

BuddhaSoup wrote: To make his point, he must have felt that the segments quoted needed to be "called on the carpet," without naming any of the perceived offenders. I imagine he has sat for many months watching the erosion of the vipassana approach to practice taking place via the so=called 'mindfulness movement', and felt the need to fire away.
While there are things one might want to criticize in the "mindfulness movement," it would seem that his firing away was rather indiscriminate.

Also, keep in mind that Joseph Goldstein, the late Ven Nyanaponika, and Bhante G, who Ven Thanissaro quoted, are also serious, highly learned practitioners, and I am sure they are no less devoted to the Dhamma than Ven Thanissaro. Ven Thanissaro’s approach strikes me as bit unskillful.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: To read beyond that Introduction simply to complain that it's not how we would have done it, that we demand scholastic citations, that we take offence to certain perceived caricatures, or that we would prefer otherwise in terms of a book on mindfulness seems like an exercise in futility, completely devoid of utility and metta.
How about reading what he said and pointing out statements that appear to be inaccurate? That's seems like a quite normal thing to do on a Forum such as this.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:How about reading what he said and pointing out statements that appear to be inaccurate? That's seems like a quite normal thing to do on a Forum such as this.
Sad if relentless nitpicking, negativity and criticism is now a "normal thing to do on a Forum such as this".

I thought exploring and furthering our knowledge of the Dhamma would have been a higher priority.

Maybe times have changed...

:shrug:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:How about reading what he said and pointing out statements that appear to be inaccurate? That's seems like a quite normal thing to do on a Forum such as this.
Sad if relentless nitpicking, negativity and criticism is now a "normal thing to do on a Forum such as this".
Well, it is a good thing there has not been "relentless nitpicking, negativity and criticism," but I could see how it could be a problem.
I thought exploring and furthering our knowledge of the Dhamma would have been a higher priority.
One would think so, which is why I posted Ven Bodhi's discussion of bare attention http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p201569" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as a place to start a discussion, but, alas, no takers.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by danieLion »

Dear Retro, Tilt, & Mike,
This is making me sad, like when my parents would fight. I'm still young in the Dhamma compared to you guys, and look up to all three of you, so could you all take a breather please?
Best,
Daniel
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