Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by robertk »

danieLion wrote:
robertk wrote:
none of this involves speculating about their ontological status
when the ancient Commentary calls them ultimately real actualities is this ontological or speculating?
Both.
."
Ok you so feel the ancients were going wrong . That is fine.
I think i will stay with their teachings rather than your ideas for now though.
danieLion
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by danieLion »

robertk wrote:Dear ben and retro,

QUOTE from commentary to mulapariyaya:
The "uninstructed worldling" (p40 of Mulapariyaya) "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness
etc , '.

So the problem with the buddhist of today, IMHO, is that they want to rush in and experience reality, or more precisely What they "feel" reality is, without enough basis in right view. And right view is totattly dependent on sufficient, careful, and right study of the true Dhamma.
Without very firm right view one could go on a path of having profound experiences, see the most subtle levels of rupa or nama. But still be misperceving them.
Hi Robert,
This "needs to be taught" phrase smacks of conceit, and "the problem with the buddhist today" comment seems like stereotyping.

We don't (always/all of us) start from scratch.

As Professor Gombrich notes in What the Buddha Thought:
I suggest...we tend to over-interpret what was meant at one level by awareness and concentration. This over-interpretation began, no doubt, with the professional monks who systematized the Buddha's teaching. I am not denying that in order to achieve Enlightenment, awareness and concentration have to be cultivated to a very high pitch. But what the Buddha was prescribing as mental training must initially have bee what we nowadays take for granted in an educated person, a basis for moral and intellectual understanding (p. 172).
Best,
Daniel
danieLion
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by danieLion »

robertk wrote:Ok you so feel the ancients were going wrong . That is fine.
I think i will stay with their teachings rather than your ideas for now though.
Aside form weak inferences, how can you be so certain my ideas and "the ancients" never overlap?
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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by robertk »

This "needs to be taught" phrase smacks of conceit,
It is from the ancient monks. I think it is simply the truth.
As for stereotyping , that is what I see after being around buddhists for 30 years, living in Thailand etc etc.
You may have wider experience than me. If so i concede the point.
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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by robertk »

danieLion wrote:
robertk wrote:Ok you so feel the ancients were going wrong . That is fine.
I think i will stay with their teachings rather than your ideas for now though.
Aside form weak inferences, how can you be so certain my ideas and "the ancients" never overlap?
I just quoted a phrase from the ancients which you call speculative etc.
did i need to to say that i was referring directly to that aspect. Of course you may for all i know agree with every single point ever said by the ancients except for that. I hope you do.
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mikenz66
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Daniel, Robert,
danieLion wrote: This "needs to be taught" phrase smacks of conceit, and "the problem with the buddhist today" comment seems like stereotyping.
Worrying about Modern Buddhists is somewhat off-topic for the Classical Theravada section:
A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
To me, the interesting question here is:
  • What do these statements about paramattha dhammas and so on in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries actually mean?
I hope we can discuss the preserved wisdom of the ancient practitioners and commentators in a constructive way, without falling into trivialisation.

:anjali:
Mike
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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by robertk »

Re Gombrich :
In the Intro. to the Vibhanga(Abhidhamma pitaka) (Pali text society) writes "It is all very well to say 'I know what is right and what is wrong'The fact is very few people do know when it comes to the precison of mental behaviour essential to correct development toward release. It is this exactitude of behaviour;mental physical and the conseqeunces thereof, that the scriptures elucidate in detail".

Iggelden carries on "
It is all very well to say 'I know what needs to be done to break the continuity of rebirth and death'. In fact very few people know of even the most elementary reasons for the continuity of process, let alone of breaking it. It is the detailed description, analysis and reasons given for this cyclic process that the scriptures spend so much care in putting before us. It is all very well to say 'What do I want to know all these
definitions of terms for, it only clutters the mind?'The question is, though, how many people when they seriously ask themselves as to the extent and range of some such apparently simple terms as greed, hatred and ignorance, can know their full and proper implications and manifestations within their own thoughts and actions..This the scriptures are at pains to make clear to even the dullest reader
.
danieLion
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by danieLion »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Daniel, Robert,
danieLion wrote: This "needs to be taught" phrase smacks of conceit, and "the problem with the buddhist today" comment seems like stereotyping.
Worrying about Modern Buddhists is somewhat off-topic for the Classical Theravada section:
A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
To me, the interesting question here is:
  • What do these statements about paramattha dhammas and so on in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries actually mean?
I hope we can discuss the preserved wisdom of the ancient practitioners and commentators in a constructive way, without falling into trivialisation.

:anjali:
Mike
OK. Will do.

What the parmattha dhammas mean according to the Abhidhamma/Commentaries is fairly clear, though.
Best,
Daniel
danieLion
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by danieLion »

robertk wrote:Re Gombrich :
In the Intro. to the Vibhanga(Abhidhamma pitaka) (Pali text society) writes "It is all very well to say 'I know what is right and what is wrong'The fact is very few people do know when it comes to the precison of mental behaviour essential to correct development toward release. It is this exactitude of behaviour;mental physical and the conseqeunces thereof, that the scriptures elucidate in detail".

Iggelden carries on "
It is all very well to say 'I know what needs to be done to break the continuity of rebirth and death'. In fact very few people know of even the most elementary reasons for the continuity of process, let alone of breaking it. It is the detailed description, analysis and reasons given for this cyclic process that the scriptures spend so much care in putting before us. It is all very well to say 'What do I want to know all these
definitions of terms for, it only clutters the mind?'The question is, though, how many people when they seriously ask themselves as to the extent and range of some such apparently simple terms as greed, hatred and ignorance, can know their full and proper implications and manifestations within their own thoughts and actions..This the scriptures are at pains to make clear to even the dullest reader
.


Good point. This is the strength, IMHO, of the cetasika
model (It's also a deal breaker or maker for most. Right view, IMHO, at least involves believing greed, hatred and delusion are unskillful. Most people are unwilling to even acknowledge they cling to greedy, hateful, and deluded ways of doing and "being". Or, when they see it unwanted, they run away or go crazy--literally).

I think we're in more accord now, but are you saying right view alone is enough to shake those unaware of their ignorance out of their complacency?
Best,
Daniel
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mikenz66
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by mikenz66 »

danieLion wrote: What the parmattha dhammas mean according to the Abhidhamma/Commentaries is fairly clear, though.
Is it? See this post:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p111695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and this one:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p184838" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nyanaponika Thera warns against taking analysis as establishing "parts" in Abhidhamma Studies
[P71 of the PDF at http://buddhanet.net].
By arranging the mental factors in relational
groups a subordinate synthetical element has been
introduced into the mainly analytical Dhammasan-
gani. By so doing, the danger inherent in purely
analytical methods has been avoided. This danger
consists in erroneously taking for genuine separate
entities the “parts” resulting from analysis, instead
of restricting their use to sound practical method
with the purpose of classifying and dissolving com-
posite events wrongly conceived as ultimate uni-
ties.
Up to the present time it has been a regular
occurrence in the history of physics, metaphysics
and psychology that when a Whole has been suc-
cessfully dissolved by analysis, the resultant “parts”
themselves come again to be regarded as little
“Wholes”. Early Buddhist schools succumbed to
this danger, for example, the Vaibhasikas, better
known as Sarvàstivàdins, which belong to the so-
called Hinayàna. It was these schools that, accord-
ing to Otto Rosenberg (“Probleme der buddhisti-
schen Philosophie”), have defined Dhammas as
“substantial bearers of their specific exclusive qual-
ities”. They assumed that “the substance of all
things has a permanent existence throughout the
three divisions of time, present, past and future”
and that only the manifestations of these “substan-
tial bearers” were impermanent and subject to change
in the three divisions in time.
...
[Ironically, I've seen some on this Forum confuse that Savarstivadin idea with Theravada doctrine.]

:anjali:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

(In light of what you quote above...)

Since Robert has advised you paramattha dhammas etc. are real, you could enquire as to precisely what "real" entails.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Since Robert has advised you paramattha dhammas etc. are real, you could enquire as to precisely what "real" entails.
I already asked that here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 09#p201053" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No point in repeating myself.

:anjali:
Mike
danieLion
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by danieLion »

mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote: Since Robert has advised you paramattha dhammas etc. are real, you could enquire as to precisely what "real" entails.
I already asked that here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 09#p201053" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No point in repeating myself.

:anjali:
Mike
Not wanting to repeat myself (or cause Dhamma Wheel to repeat itself) is why I dismissed enquiring into to the meaning of "real."

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... it=realism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best,
Daniel
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retrofuturist
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:No point in repeating myself.
Perhaps, only than that the discussion got no further than agreeing that the conditioned paramattha dhammas do not exist independently of causes and conditions... which speaks more of their arising and cessation, than it does of what it is that "really" arises and ceases in accordance with said conditions.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Post by danieLion »

mikenz66 wrote:
danieLion wrote: What the parmattha dhammas mean according to the Abhidhamma/Commentaries is fairly clear, though.
Is it? See this post:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p111695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and this one:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p184838" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nyanaponika Thera warns against taking analysis as establishing "parts" in Abhidhamma Studies
[P71 of the PDF at http://buddhanet.net].
By arranging the mental factors in relational
groups a subordinate synthetical element has been
introduced into the mainly analytical Dhammasan-
gani. By so doing, the danger inherent in purely
analytical methods has been avoided. This danger
consists in erroneously taking for genuine separate
entities the “parts” resulting from analysis, instead
of restricting their use to sound practical method
with the purpose of classifying and dissolving com-
posite events wrongly conceived as ultimate uni-
ties.
Up to the present time it has been a regular
occurrence in the history of physics, metaphysics
and psychology that when a Whole has been suc-
cessfully dissolved by analysis, the resultant “parts”
themselves come again to be regarded as little
“Wholes”. Early Buddhist schools succumbed to
this danger, for example, the Vaibhasikas, better
known as Sarvàstivàdins, which belong to the so-
called Hinayàna. It was these schools that, accord-
ing to Otto Rosenberg (“Probleme der buddhisti-
schen Philosophie”), have defined Dhammas as
“substantial bearers of their specific exclusive qual-
ities”. They assumed that “the substance of all
things has a permanent existence throughout the
three divisions of time, present, past and future”
and that only the manifestations of these “substan-
tial bearers” were impermanent and subject to change
in the three divisions in time.
...
[Ironically, I've seen some on this Forum confuse that Savarstivadin idea with Theravada doctrine.]

:anjali:
Mike
Well, this just seems to highlight my point. These references merely elaborate on the basic ontological project.
Best,
Daniel
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