Satipatana vs Anapanasati

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
pegembara
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by pegembara »

"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mental qualities: 1. Freed from hindrances, 2. Presence of the bojjhangas - Mindfulness (sati), Keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya), Energy (viriya), Rapture or happiness (piti), Calm (passaddhi), Concentration (samadhi), Equanimity (upekkha)
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:Since anapanasati is satipatthana, as above, and since satipatthana follows the suppression of the hindrances (MN 125), it seems clear that the hindrances are to be dealt with before engaging with any tetrad of anapanasati. Doubt, for example, is doubt over what makes a state wholesome or unwholesome, not doubt over whether the Dhamma is true or whether there are gods or not.

In any event, samatha and vipassana aren't practices, they are paired qualities which develop due to the gradual training.
Yes, an interesting point on satipatthana following the suppression of the hindrances.
I was looking at the Nivarana Sutta ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) which suggests that the 4 frames of satipatthana are the means for overcoming the hindrances - though possibly this is referring to a "permanent" abandoning, rather than the temporary suppression required for jhana.

I agree with your point about samatha and vipassana as paired qualities which develop, though I still feel that anapanasati and satipatthana are distinct methods, the former approaching via samatha and the latter approaching via vipassana.
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Zom
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by Zom »

Anapanasati is the method to develop all four Satipatthanas to the maximum possible level.

Read SN 54.10 8-)
daverupa
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by daverupa »

porpoise wrote:I was looking at the Nivarana Sutta ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )...
Yes indeed, this is an example of a contradiction, which does happen occasionally in the Nikayas. I have read that satipatthana is to eliminate the hindrances, that jhana does that, and also that the hindrances are dealt with before either of those. This tumultuous vortex at the end of the eightfold path can be worrisome, and it seems to be why meditation methods are so thick on the ground (as opposed to "different strokes for different folks", though that has it's - strongly delimited - place as well).

Since satipatthana seems to be inappropriately missing from nearly every gradual training sutta, given its apparent centrality to the Path, I see that Nivarana Sutta as a later attempt at consolidation (late Anguttara is often high-number Anguttara, on this critiqueable heuristic). Looking at an "earlier" Anguttara Nikaya passage, we find:
AN 5.51 wrote:In the same way, when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible.
Given this, it seems even right effort is impossible while the hindrances are present, to say nothing of satipatthana and jhana.

---


P.S. Anapanasati is a way of framing ones practice according to satipatthana - satipatthana is not, itself, a practice. (I would go further, and say that satipatthana is a framework for jhana practice, while the jhana pericope is a description of progressive results due to this practice.)

$0.02; this should be enough to buy some grains of salt; the interplay of the various aspects of Samadhi is definitely something we should all continue to investigate.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:I was looking at the Nivarana Sutta ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )...
Yes indeed, this is an example of a contradiction, which does happen occasionally in the Nikayas. I have read that satipatthana is to eliminate the hindrances, that jhana does that, and also that the hindrances are dealt with before either of those. This tumultuous vortex at the end of the eightfold path can be worrisome, and it seems to be why meditation methods are so thick on the ground (as opposed to "different strokes for different folks", though that has it's - strongly delimited - place as well).

P.S. Anapanasati is a way of framing ones practice according to satipatthana - satipatthana is not, itself, a practice. (I would go further, and say that satipatthana is a framework for jhana practice, while the jhana pericope is a description of progressive results due to this practice.)
Yes, it's not always easy to make sense of the way these things are described in the different suttas. And of course the hindrances are one of the mental objects to be observed in the 4th frame of satipatthana, which suggests that they are still present while "doing" satipatthana.

I would have said that anapanasati is the framework for jhana - I'm thinking of the references to piti and sukha in the second tetrad, the references to gladdening and liberating the mind in the 3rd tetrad, and the feel of the 4th tetrad generally.
I think of satipatthana primarily as a framework for mindfulness both on and off the cushion.
:)
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zom wrote:Anapanasati is the method to develop all four Satipatthanas to the maximum possible level.

Read SN 54.10 8-)
I'm not sure because several of the commentaries I've read describe anapanasati as being primarily about developing jhana - and as we've been discussing it's not all that easy to get a concensus view from the suttas. Or do you mean that jhana is the means to develop the 4 satipatthanas?
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santa100
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by santa100 »

Porpoise wrote:
"I'm not sure because several of the commentaries I've read describe anapanasati as being primarily about developing jhana - and as we've been discussing it's not all that easy to get a concensus view from the suttas. Or do you mean that jhana is the means to develop the 4 satipatthanas?"

Bhikkhu Bodhi mentioned from the commentary on the word 'experience' in the anapanasati: "one 'experiences' rapture in two ways: by attaining one of the lower two jhanas in which rapture is present, one experiences rapture in the mode of Serenity; or by emerging from that jhana and contemplating that rapture as subject to destruction, one experiences rapture in the mode of Insight". So, it seems that there's no serial/linear causal relationship between anapanasati and jhana. They mutually condition each other to advance (i.e. focusing on the in-out breath conditions the arising of jhanas; and the jhanas condition the 'experiencing' (joy and happiness/2nd tetrad). Anapanasati could even be used to developed dry-insight by going straight to the 4th tetrad. In short, Anapanasati is the versatile tool for a lot of things: serenity, insight, jhanas, etc..
twelph
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by twelph »

santa100 wrote:Anapanasati could even be used to developed dry-insight by going straight to the 4th tetrad. In short, Anapanasati is the versatile tool for a lot of things: serenity, insight, jhanas, etc..

So far I count a total of 4 interpretations on the development of Anapanasati:
followed sequentially
followed concurrently
a single tetrad followed exclusively
following a single tetrad encompassing all the rest
daverupa
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by daverupa »

twelph wrote:
santa100 wrote:Anapanasati could even be used to developed dry-insight by going straight to the 4th tetrad. In short, Anapanasati is the versatile tool for a lot of things: serenity, insight, jhanas, etc..

So far I count a total of 4 interpretations on the development of Anapanasati:
followed sequentially
followed concurrently
a single tetrad followed exclusively
following a single tetrad encompassing all the rest
Throw another one in the mix: one or another tetrad based on the minds inclination, per the simile of the cook at SN 47.8. (This might count as 'concurrently', depending...)
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
twelph
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by twelph »

daverupa wrote: Throw another one in the mix: one or another tetrad based on the minds inclination, per the simile of the cook at SN 47.8. (This might count as 'concurrently', depending...)
What an excellent simile! This is actually my interpretation of concurrently, and the way in which I approach the sutta. Allowing my mind to naturally develop each aspect when the opportunity arises. Trying to seek out an aspect of the teaching seems to make my mind think there is a preference for that experience, and it becomes somewhat exhausting.
twelph
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by twelph »

WalBarb wrote: When reading this discourse, it remains questionable to me that this discourse is about the "minds inclination" towards a specific satipatthana (if that is the interpretation you are proposing).
Awesome first post, and welcome!

Taking a look at the last line of the sutta:
Because the wise, experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of his own mind."
Makes me think that the satipatthana theme the mind has inclined towards is momentary, arising because of certain characteristics that have arisen in the present experience. Not necessarily that certain minds are inclined in certain ways. :anjali:
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by daverupa »

WalBarb wrote:When reading this discourse, it remains questionable to me that this discourse is about the "minds inclination" towards a specific satipatthana (if that is the interpretation you are proposing). As I read this discourse, it repeats the same theme with each satipatthana.
Yes, so each tetrad has an exemplar who does or does not pick up the sign of his mind, and this is what renders the satipatthana effort successful or not.

I suggest that given the presence of wholesome factors in both cases ("ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world"), a key interpretive aspect of the simile is that just as "he takes note of his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes X'", so too he needs to note how the mind is responding to the particular tetrad, adjusting accordingly. I might be inclined to call this vitakka-vicara.

---

However:
"There are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused... not concentrated... he is not rewarded ... with mindfulness & alertness."
So, in the case of the unskilled who does not pick up the sign, as he remains alert and mindful he is not rewarded with mindfulness and alertness. It's rather odd, isn't it?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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reflection
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by reflection »

As you have noticed, opinions differ quite a lot actually. Some place satipattana on a pedestal, others may place anapanasati on it. And if you go around reading all that's been written on this subject, your head will explode. A lot of people seem to have very fixed views on all of this. And they can go in all kinds of directions to fit the sutta to say what they think. So who should you believe? ..

In my experience it's best to keep a bit of distance from all of this and rely on your own experience instead of the words of others. The goal of our practice is peace and non-attachment. How can you develop this in your meditation? Letting go, that's the important thing. It doesn't really matter if you call it satipattana or anapanasati. In my experience the two circle around one another.

And in my eyes it's unwise to rely too much on one sutta. For example, the satipattana sutta seems to have undergone quite some editing over the years. The different versions of the satipattana are not the same and it seems like certain practices are not from the original version. Things like the 4 noble truths and the aggregates for example. (Look up 'A history of Mindfulness' by Ajahn Sujato if you are interested)

But technically (sorry to throw in another view) I see mindfulness as 'to keep in mind', as recollection or remembrance, which was it's original meaning. It's especially remembering to remove the hindrances as also shown in the cook sutta that was mentioned before. So as it is the 7th factor of the path and concentration the 8th, the correct use of satipattana leads to jhana. However, this technical view has no real central place when I am sitting on the cushion. Then all these ideas are gone. While the suttas are excellent material generally, it's just text that's still a few levels below reality as it really is. This often seems to be forgotten by people who go into detailed analysis of them. But if you have a good understanding of the mind, all this analysis is not needed. And if you could find the truth in the suttas, why meditate at all?

I hope this can help you or others a bit.

With metta,
Reflection
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Post by Spiny Norman »

santa100 wrote:In short, Anapanasati is the versatile tool for a lot of things: serenity, insight, jhanas, etc..
:goodpost:
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