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Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada - Dhamma Wheel

Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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johnny
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Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:07 am

Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada (other than koans and shouting and hitting)?

I practiced Zen for a long time and then changed too theravada and as i read the pali canon and commentaries and some other theravada literature, i'm finding every single thing i learned in zen.

the attitude and goal are a little different, but only when you get into debates on literal meanings of phrases and defining states of mind that are usually outside of normal comprehension in the first place.

i am not talking about doctrines or philosophical ideas (buddha nature, etc.), i'm talking about literal practices (sitting meditation methods, chanting, walking meditation, etc.).

if this were something more mundane it would be like:

does restaurant "A" have the same cooking methods (stir frying, mincing, deep frying, etc.) as restaurant "B"? but i'm not concerned about ideas (restaurant "A" thinks that painting the walls yellow makes customers feel relaxed and restaurant "B" thinks painting them blue is better, restaurant "A" believes that deep down everyone wants too stuff themselves until they cannot eat any more, restaurant "B" believes that deep down people prefer moderation and do not like overeating, etc.)

is there anything a theravada teacher will tell you to do that a zen teacher would not.
Last edited by johnny on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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Cittasanto
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:30 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Khalil Bodhi
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:03 am

To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

Uposatha Observance Club:
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby ground » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:44 am


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johnny
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:22 pm

The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:24 pm

The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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Cittasanto
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:43 pm

Last edited by Cittasanto on Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby befriend » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:42 pm

shikantaza, is taught after one practices zazen for a while. i dont know there might be theravadan teachers who teach something like shikantaza, which means nothing but sitting.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:52 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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johnny
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:59 pm

The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:08 pm

The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:10 pm

the more i look into it, the more it seems like zen is the mahayana equivalent too the theravada vipassana school. kind of a "drop everything but some very bare bones practices" kind of deal. very efficient and simple. great stuff.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby sutira » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:11 am


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johnny
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:18 am

The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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Dan74
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby Dan74 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:32 am

I guess Zen is also not one lineage and includes Chinese Chan, Korean Seon and probably Vietnamese Thien.

Within these traditions there have certainly been teachers who have taught jhanas or have considered jhanas as stages along the path. For me it is hard to envisage complete liberation without deep jhanas of some kind but I could be wrong.

I also feel that a bare bones approach is only possible when sufficient garbage has been moved out of the way to make "seeing own nature" possible. Until then it is seeing "garbage" (of the more spiritual and lofty type) and believing it to be it.

The shouting and hitting was probably more of an exception that got promoted into the Zen brand in Ming dynasty as different schools vied for imperial patronage. The Zen way has always been the chick working hard to break out of the shell (of ignorance) and the mother hen helping just on the other side where the chick is pecking. So whatever was the key obstacle was brought as a question to the master ans the master responded appropriately. These were life and death encounters. And they became mondo and koans (kong-an) and later hua-tou. I don't think this is about iconoclastic, non-conformist, anti-thought, cool, etc. This was the heart question put in the most direct way available within that tradition. And likewise with the response. Our modern psychological way of "my mind" "i am thinking" is far more removed and dualistic than "the mind is the Buddha" or "no mind, no buddha" or "not knowing is the most intimate".

Don't you think so?
Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:36 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:38 am


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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:42 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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johnny
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:28 am

Last edited by johnny on Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: Are there any practices in Zen not found in Theravada

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:30 am

The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five


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