why do so few Buddhist monks call themselves “bhikkhu” ?!
for more quotes from the suttas on the topic of “right livelihood of a bhikkhu”, have a look at this little book, which provides a long collection of similar passages from the Suttas, all strung together from the moment of entering the Order until attainment of arahantship, in the words of the Buddha:
http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2012/01 ... eggarmonk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The use of "Bhante"
Re: The use of "Bhante"
Regarding "bhikkhu", compare this article:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: The use of "Bhante"
The translation from the Itivuttaka on that page is misleading, especially in regards to the current discussion...gavesako wrote:Regarding "bhikkhu", compare this article:...
It91/3.42 wrote:“Bhikkhus, this is contemptible means of subsistence, this gathering of alms. In the world, bhikkhus, it is a form of abuse to say “You alms-gatherer(bhikkhu) ! Wandering about clutching a begging bowl!’
The English is giving "bhikkhu" as a gloss for "piṇḍolo" which is deceptive. I don't think "bhikkhu" is ever used as a form of abuse in the canon. The monks are often abused, but I don't think it is done by simply calling them bhikkhus as this translation would imply.“antamidaṁ, bhikkhave, jīvikānaṁ yadidaṁ piṇḍolyaṁ. abhisāpoyaṁ {abhisāpāyaṁ (sī.), abhilāpāyaṁ (syā. pī.), abhisapāyaṁ (ka.)}, bhikkhave, lokasmiṁ — ‘piṇḍolo vicarasi pattapāṇī’ti.
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- Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: The title 'Ajahn'
Yes. I should have said "third person" — I have corrected my post.BKh wrote:Don't you mean "third person"? Isn't the second example second person?
Is Bhikkhu ever used as a title along with a name in the canon?
Yes to the second point too. Collectively, in almost every sutta the Buddha addresses the monks as "bhikkhave," and in other places where, for example, he is referring to a particular bhikkhu by name, e.g. in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttaṃ when telling the bhikkhus to invite the bhikkhu Sāti to come and see him:
“Ehi tvaṃ bhikkhu, mama vacanena sātiṃ bhikkhuṃ kevaṭṭaputtaṃ āmantehi
Blog • Pāli Fonts • In This Very Life • Buddhist Chronicles • Software (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
Re: The title 'Ajahn'
Hi Bhikkhu Pesala,Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...Collectively, in almost every sutta the Buddha addresses the monks as "bhikkhave," and in other places where, for example, he is referring to a particular bhikkhu by name, e.g. in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttaṃ when telling the bhikkhus to invite the bhikkhu Sāti to come and see him:“Ehi tvaṃ bhikkhu, mama vacanena sātiṃ bhikkhuṃ kevaṭṭaputtaṃ āmantehi
Do you know why there's a differentiation of usage with "Bhikkhu"? That is, why is there a difference in usage about where "Bhikkhu" is placed in the title? For example, at the beginning, as in Bhikkhu Bodhi, or at the end, as in Thanissaro Bhikkhu?
I've also noticed with Bhuddhadasa, for instance, that depending on the publication he's sometimes "Ajahn" and sometimes "Bhikkhu"?
I've inferred from all this that there's a lot of room for personalization. Is this accurate?
Kind regards,
Daniel
Re: The use of "Bhante"
And yet, despite the grammatical injunctions regarding the vocative "bhante", King Milinda addressed Ven Nagasena by "Bhante Nagasena", eg -
I wonder if the good venerable corrected the king's Pali.Atha kho milindo rājā āyasmantaṃ nāgasenaṃ etadavoca ‘‘sace, bhante nāgasena, puggalo nūpalabbhati, ko carahi tumhākaṃ cīvarapiṇḍapātasenāsanagilānappaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ deti, ko taṃ paribhuñjati, ko sīlaṃ rakkhati, ko bhāvanamanuyuñjati, ....
- LonesomeYogurt
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Re: The title 'Ajahn'
Pesala would know better but I think that it's more common in Thailand to be "monastic name Bhikkhu" rather than the "Bhikkhu monastic name." Buddhadasa himself is usually refered to as Buddhadasa Bhikkhu.danieLion wrote:Hi Bhikkhu Pesala,Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...Collectively, in almost every sutta the Buddha addresses the monks as "bhikkhave," and in other places where, for example, he is referring to a particular bhikkhu by name, e.g. in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttaṃ when telling the bhikkhus to invite the bhikkhu Sāti to come and see him:“Ehi tvaṃ bhikkhu, mama vacanena sātiṃ bhikkhuṃ kevaṭṭaputtaṃ āmantehi
Do you know why there's a differentiation of usage with "Bhikkhu"? That is, why is there a difference in usage about where "Bhikkhu" is placed in the title? For example, at the beginning, as in Bhikkhu Bodhi, or at the end, as in Thanissaro Bhikkhu?
I've also noticed with Bhuddhadasa, for instance, that depending on the publication he's sometimes "Ajahn" and sometimes "Bhikkhu"?
I've inferred from all this that there's a lot of room for personalization. Is this accurate?
Kind regards,
Daniel
Ajahn just means teacher in Thai.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
- Bhikkhu Pesala
- Posts: 4647
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm
Re: The use of "Bhante"
I don't know why the word order is different — I don't think word order matters much in Pāli since the case ending of a word defines its role as subject, object, etc.
I think it works better in an English sentence if the title is first — if we were to translate "bhikkhu" as "Venerable", then: we would say "Venerable Pesala isn't a Pāli scholar," not "Pesala Venerable isn't a Pāli scholar."
I think it works better in an English sentence if the title is first — if we were to translate "bhikkhu" as "Venerable", then: we would say "Venerable Pesala isn't a Pāli scholar," not "Pesala Venerable isn't a Pāli scholar."
Blog • Pāli Fonts • In This Very Life • Buddhist Chronicles • Software (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
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Re: The use of "Bhante"
Bhante,
Thank you for sharing the knowledge.
In the Burmese tradition, elder nuns may be adressed as 'sayagyi' and younger ones as 'sayalay' ("gyi' conveying the meaning of big/great and 'lay' the meaning of small).
It is the way I heard these terms used in Burmese monasteries.
Metta
A buddhist nun
Thank you for sharing the knowledge.
If I may add some more precision...The Burmese words "Saya" or "Sayādaw" (royal teacher) are also derived from the same Pāl word (ca in Burmese is pronounced as sa). Burmese nuns are addressed as "Sayalay" and female meditation teachers are addressed as "Sayama" while male lay teachers are addressed as "Sayagyi."
In the Burmese tradition, elder nuns may be adressed as 'sayagyi' and younger ones as 'sayalay' ("gyi' conveying the meaning of big/great and 'lay' the meaning of small).
It is the way I heard these terms used in Burmese monasteries.
Metta
A buddhist nun
Re: The use of "Bhante"
Greetings Ven Santisasana,
kind regards,
Ben
What is the correct form of address for a Thilashin?santisasana wrote:Bhante,
Thank you for sharing the knowledge.
If I may add some more precision...The Burmese words "Saya" or "Sayādaw" (royal teacher) are also derived from the same Pāl word (ca in Burmese is pronounced as sa). Burmese nuns are addressed as "Sayalay" and female meditation teachers are addressed as "Sayama" while male lay teachers are addressed as "Sayagyi."
In the Burmese tradition, elder nuns may be adressed as 'sayagyi' and younger ones as 'sayalay' ("gyi' conveying the meaning of big/great and 'lay' the meaning of small).
It is the way I heard these terms used in Burmese monasteries.
Metta
A buddhist nun
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
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Re: The use of "Bhante"
Dear Ben,
In Burma, the thilashin are adressed simply by 'sayalay' or 'sayagyi'.
Metta
In Burma, the thilashin are adressed simply by 'sayalay' or 'sayagyi'.
Metta
Re: The use of "Bhante"
I have a small question connected with the topic: is it pronounced with a long or a short ending? I've heard both bhantè and bhanté.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
Re: The use of "Bhante"
It is long ("teh").
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations