The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Nyana
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:07 pm

Generally speaking, the different collections of suttas that were compiled and redacted by the various early Buddhist sects are similar enough in content that in practical terms they are teaching the same dhamma, regardless of the differences in how the pericopes are arranged.

Here's Tse-fu Kuan's English translations of the Chinese versions of the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and the Kāyagatāsati Sutta, and his endnotes for both suttas:

Sutta_1.pdf
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Sutta_2.pdf
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Notes.pdf
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:43 am

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

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piotr
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby piotr » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:55 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby danieLion » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:59 am


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Spiny Norman
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:42 pm

I don't think the Satipatthana Sutta is a forgery, but it does seem to contain quite an assortment of different practices some of which may have been added later.
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daverupa
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby daverupa » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:53 pm


Sylvester
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:33 am


wtp
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby wtp » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:41 am

The reason Ajahn Sujato concentrated on this sutta for this type of analysis is because it is particularly venerated, in Sri Lanka and Burma especially, and described by a range of authors as the main teaching of the Buddha. Therefore it carries considerable authority and influence. He also suggests that the construction of this sutta with its repeated vipassana refrain and added material, rather than being an inoccuous aide memoir, in fact ends up being misleading and misrepresents what mindfulness is all about. Agree or disagree it is a well reasoned argument.

I think you would need to read his thoughtful analysis before blithely dismissing it. There is, I think, a condensed version of the analysis - Sylvester do you know the link?

wtp
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby wtp » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:46 am

I also think it is a very interesting question as to whether literary and historical analysis can get us closer to the original teachings of the Buddha or not. And whether this is even important.

Personally I think it is very important. While I do not think we can ever overcome all doubts about any particular passage or sutta, we do need some basis for embarking on the Buddhist path.

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Thitadhammo
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Thitadhammo » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:39 pm

Isn't the whole world a forgery crafted by the unawakened mind? If the Satipatthana Sutta can help you look through this, then it surely should not be classified as fraud.
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suttametta
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby suttametta » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:59 pm

I don't think it's a question of whether it was a forgery, but whether it was a compilation used as a mnemonic device. But also whether some parts of the compilation lift non-buddhist elements.

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daverupa
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:47 pm


suttametta
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby suttametta » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:33 pm


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daverupa
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:58 pm


suttametta
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby suttametta » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:20 pm


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Mr Man
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Mr Man » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:41 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:51 pm


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daverupa
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:08 pm

Unfortunately, a detailed response seems to require a thoroughgoing review of current Early Buddhism literature (Wynne, Hamilton, Vetter, Bronkhorst, and others as well), and a forum post is inadequate to the task. Additionally, mileage may vary with respect to perceived evidential strength.

:broke:

I simply want to indicate, in this subforum in particular, that the Nikayas are not homogenous; they reflect a long period of routinization, and this long before Theravada even existed. Therefore, the Theravada tradition is best seen as one attempt at understanding Early Buddhism; there were possibly as many as 15 other scholastic attempts, perhaps more, and the historical accidents which saw the survival of Theravada are not enough to recommend their particular exegesis in toto, especially when modern approaches have seen some success in correcting hitherto unrecognized mistakes.

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mikenz66
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:58 am

Hi Dave,

Well, could you (or someone else) just give us a clue or a specific reference? I'm genuinely perplexed, since I don't recall ever seeing an argument that the Satipatthana Sutta contained Upanishadic influence.

:anjali:
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:36 am



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