Right way to cultivate samma sankappa?

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starter
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Hi I'd like to recommend the following relevant Dhamma talks:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/?s ... nunciation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Joseph Goldstein)
2009-04-17 Satipatthana Sutta - part 41 - The Noble Eightfold Path: Right Thought, Part One - Renunciation 54:34

Insight Meditation Society - Forest Refuge: April 2009 at IMS - Forest Refuge
In collection Satipatthana Sutta Series
1991-11-09 Karma: The Power Of Renunciation 61:43

As I understand, in these two talks, renunciation was cultivated as:

1) Applying/living the wisdom of the understanding of the law of karma to practice right intention (for non-addiction/non-attachment); ask ourselves "What am I addicted/attached to? What am I keep struggling with?"
Then ask ourselves: "Is this (what we desire/want/cling to) really necessary? Is this really helpful (beneficial)?"

2) Letting go of the unskillful (intention for sensual desire/ill will/harming) in the mind without negative self judgment -- the power/ability to say "NO" to the mind in a gentle loving way, not by force but by comprehension and wisdom;

3) Renunciate complexity, and go back to simplicity; go over our daily routine, let go of those unnecessary or unbeneficial habit/pattern, or try to change a habit and observe how difficult it is to change it (e.g. how we brush our teeth -- always starting from the left side? Then try to start from the right side instead) [also check things that we use/do and our belongings (e.g. is it necessary to have so many clothes/shoes?)]

4) Be mindful of our thinking, and let go of papanca (those I/me/mine stories) and come back to the present moment.

5) Try to observe 8 precepts on a regular basis.

6) Conservation of energy: to avoid the leak of energy by renunciation;

Note: the contents in parentheses are not in the talks.

I also enjoyed the following talk by Kamala Masters:
2011-10-05 Renunciation, the Happiness of Letting Go

This talk gave some detailed daily life examples on how to recognize/letting-go of desires/attachments for pleasant mental experiences/feelings, e.g. attachments to learning/ideas/opinions/being right/to have our opinions heard and approved ...

Sensual desires, especially the desires of the sixth sense, are actually much more complicated than we would probably think of. The general reflection on eight worldly winds are probably not sufficient, considering many subtle and diverse desires/attachments of the mind. Or a more thorough/detailed understanding of the 8 worldly winds would help.

I'd appreciate your sharing of some good talks on how to cultivate renunciation. Thanks and metta,

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starter
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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I'm thinking about integrating right intention with yoniso manasikara into the daily mental/verbal/bodily conducts as a way of cultivating right intention. This would be especially helpful for overcoming thoughtless and rash (re)actions, if we can slow down, calm down, and remain calm during daily life so that we can pause to examine our thoughts, our intention, our approach and the potential consequence(s) of our conduct as well as the circumstance/environment before letting our mouth open or before pressing that “post” or “send” button. I wish I can always pause and ask myself: “What is the purpose of these words/actions? What am I trying to accomplish with these words/actions? Are they intended for renunciation or for sensual desire? Are they intended for making peace or for harming? What will this do to me/others? How can I approach this in a more beneficial way?”

Metta to all,

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daverupa
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Post by daverupa »

starter wrote:stop to examine our thoughts, our intention, our approach and the potential consequences of our conducts as well as the circumstances/our environments before letting our mouth open or before pressing that “post” or “send” button. I wish my mind can always stop and ask myself: “What is the purpose of these words/actions? What am I trying to accomplish with these words/actions? Are they intended for renunciation or for sensual desire? Are they intended for making peace or for harming? What will this do to me/others? How can I approach this in a more beneficial way?”
This is very similar to the advice given to Rahula. I think I would prefer to say that rather than stopping the mind in order to analyze thusly, one ought to generate energy and strive to not stop analyzing thusly, whether before, during, or after any particular act of the body, speech, or mind.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
starter
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Hi dave,

thanks for the comment. If one has already developed the habit of wise reflection before each action, then of course he doesn't need to pause and ask those questions. But pausing for wise reflection before actions is at the moment very necessary for starters like me. May I ask how you developed such wise reflections without the need to pause before each action?

It's a bit puzzling that in MN 61 the Buddha taught us to reflect upon the nature (wholesome or not) and consequence (harmful or not) of an action only. He didn't teach us to reflect upon the intention of an action, neither did he ask us to dwell upon, analyze and improve an action to be conducted. Nevertheless, he did indicate "But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do." So I guess it's alright to reflect upon "How can I approach this in a more beneficial way?".

MN 61:
... "Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do." ...

Metta to all,

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daverupa
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Post by daverupa »

I can't see a difference between reflecting on intention and reflecting on mental acts, except that the latter is perhaps more inclusive.

Just as with every aspect of the gradual training, it is easier with the proper preliminaries in place - so, living a lifestyle of walking around having chit-chats all day, eating three meals, some music & internet peppered in there, and then an hour of some manner of meditation... slow progress for sure.

Rather, meditation is an intensified engagement with what one should be striving to do all the time anyway: minute-by-minute six-senses restraint, food restraint, sampajanna, and so forth. Buddhists also used to be known for their preference for silence. Meditation is better when such a foundation is given careful attention; lessening the cacophony of daily living seems essential, and the attitude of throwing sense input back the way one would throw a fish back into a lake is useful.

I benefit from having a job that is highly repetitive and which doesn't require much interaction with people, as well as introversion which means I have a handful of friends, and all but one of those lives far away. So, it's very quiet very often, and that's very helpful.

Watching boredom is helpful - usually it means you're getting dangerously close to some good quiet.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
starter
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Hi dave, thanks for sharing your helpful practice experience. Just would like to share the following new understanding after listening to a helpful talk (http://media.dharmaseed.org/recordings/ ... ention.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;):

While wise intention is the forerunner of wise attention, the pausing to bring wise intention/reflection to the moment is the important switch from "choiceless" [impulsive/blinded/habitual actions driven by greed or aversion and guided by ignorance/delusion, which lead to suffering and bondage] to "choice" (thoughtful/wise actions guided by wisdom, which lead to peace and freedom). We pause to abandon or change our approach/choose the wiser way which will not lead to the obstruction of wisdom and conflicts, but to understanding and peace. The cultivation of wise intention/thinking is choosing to (re)shape/(re)condition our mind for ending suffering, until wise intention/thinking becomes our true nature, when we reach the transition from "choice" to a new dimension of "choiceless". It's import that we walk the path with direction and vision, which is guided by wise intention and implemented by wise attention/reflection/action.

Metta to all,

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daverupa
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Post by daverupa »

Majjhima Nikaya 151 is relevant here on the theme of continual reflection.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Hi dave, thanks for recommending the sutta.

Since my heart is not really ready yet to leap up at renunciation, I'm trying to gain deeper understanding of sensual pleasures, their drawbacks, renunciation and the reward of renunciation. In addition to what have been posted above, I'd like to add the following:
1) Things come and go, no matter how good or bad; cravings come and go, no matter you satisfy them or not. When we are grasped by greed, ask ourselves: will it lead to my long-term welfare and happiness, or only transient gratification but long-term regret and suffering (the effect of Mara's bait)? Picture ourselves still indulging in sensual pleasures in a burning house while our hair and clothes are already on fire.
2) Renunciation is not about outer form, but about inner motivation. When we cultivate renunciation, it's kind of easy to get lost in the seeking of renouncing outer forms (and actually getting attached to such forms of practice like asceticism) , instead of renouncing inner sensual desires. For instance, it's not family/relationship that we should renounce, but that our attachment to them. "Renunciation is not giving up the things of this world, but accepting that they go away".
3) While we are hooked to wanting, ask ourselves "why am I hanging on to this? What happens if I let it go?" Tell ourselves nothing outside or inside is better than the internal peace.
4) Let go our attachment to who we are, to results/obtainment of our practice, to our idea/opinion how things should be and how others should be.
5) Accept how things are. We need to change our perception of things instead of changing things. While we are in an urge to resist, defend and control, remind ourselves: "let it be, let it go, it'll turn out to be the best for your practice -- whatever/however it comes out". Leave the heart at peace and ease instead of turmoils, and give the mind space -- nothing is worth clinging to, and holding on to nothing is the source of freedom and peace.


Your input would be appreciated. Thanks and metta,

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starter
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Better not to feel and think: "I want to see agreeable sights, hear agreeable sounds, smell agreeable smells, taste agreeable foods/drinks, feel agreeable bodily sensations, and feel happy/satisfied with no loss/failure/defame/despise/rejection, no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, disappointment, frustration, dissatisfaction, despair, ...".

But better to put it this way: "It is this eye/ear/nose/tongue/body that wants agreeable sights ..., it is this mind that wants satisfaction via gain/success/fame/respect/acceptance/ease/confidence ...".

Or best to see it this way: "it is the asavas/kilesas in the mind that want agreeable sights ..., and gain/success/fame/respect/acceptance/ease/confidence ..., which deluded the mind and led it to believe these can bring it satisfaction and happiness".

Metta to all!
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Happened to, at very right time, listen to a stimulating Dhamma talk this morning: http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/44/talk/4474/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Understood the following today:

1) Renunciation is not about renouncing the world, not about giving up pleasant sights/sounds/smells/tastes/bodily sensations and mental pleasures, not about giving up valued and cherished worldly possessions including mental fantacies -- but about renouncing "self".

There's actually nothing there to give up -- what's given up is our WRONG VIEW, our delusion of "self".

2) It seems that the suttas about Right Thinking/Intention summarized in the previous posts were taught for the mundane path. Are there suttas on this topic taught for the supramundane path, for those who have understood 4NT?

3) It's probably better to combine the mundane path of "Non-sensual desire, Non-ill will, Non-harming" with the supramundane path of "Non-greed, Non-aversion, Non-delusion" when practicing the second path factor?

When focused on practicing only mundane Right View (law of karma and non-harming), my daily reflections on no wrong view would tend to be positive. However, there were actually so many wrong views/delusions almost all the time: "I" want ..., "I" like ..., "I" must ...

Metta to all!
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reflection
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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I prefer to translate Right Intention with Right Thought, which is also a commonly used translation. It makes it a bit more clear that it's not just the will to change the mind, but also actually doing it, changing the thoughts. Of course, thoughts and intention are closely linked. So both translations have their value. However, if you see it as thought, you can search a bit wider. If you do this, you'll see that this sutta can not be absent from this discussion: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el021.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is also a practice for noble ones. At least until non-return I would say, but because it also mentiones delusion, it could as well be for the entire path. Which is also backed up by:
He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering.
However, practicing this is of course also for everybody else.
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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starter wrote: Renunciation is not about renouncing the world, not about giving up pleasant sights/sounds/smells/tastes/bodily sensations and mental pleasures, not about giving up valued and cherished worldly possessions including mental fantacies -- but about renouncing "self".

There's actually nothing there to give up -- what's given up is our WRONG VIEW, our delusion of "self".
If you look in the suttas, you often see the Buddha advising to leave behind as much sensuality as possible. Also the Vinaya is largely geared towards this. To me it's quite clear renunciation is really about weakening attachments to the 5 senses, not so much about the self or the mind. Of course, they go together a bit, but it's mainly the 5 senses clinging that is hurt by renunciation.
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Hi reflection,

Many thanks for your helpful comments and recommendation of MN20. The link you provided has a very good translation of this sutta; however, I tend to think MN 20 is for letting go of unwholesome thoughts to enter Samadhi (for the middle stage), instead of cultivating right thinking/intention (for the beginning stage):

MN 20:
"Five things should be reflected on from time to time, by the bhikkhu who is intent on the higher consciousness [Samadhi].
When, indeed, bhikkhus, evil unskillful thoughts due to reflection on an adventitious object are eliminated, when they disappear, and the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated just within (his subject of meditation), through his reflection on an object connected with skill, through his pondering on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts, his endeavoring to be without attentiveness and reflection as regards those thoughts or through his restraining, subduing, and beating down of the evil mind by the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate, that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering."

MN19 used the second method taught in MN 20 for letting go of unwholesome thoughts, but I believe MN 19 is not just intended for Samadhi but for discerning what types of desire we should let go (that's why we should divide our thoughts into two groups), detecting unwholesome thoughts as soon as they arise, and then apply the method to let go the unwholesome thoughts. The reason that the Buddha taught us only the second method in MN 19 instead of all the five methods is likely because he would like us to let go unskillful thoughts by true understanding, not by force or substitution or inattentiveness.

I'll get back to your second post later.

Metta to all !
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Yes, the sutta is mainly about thoughts preventing samadhi. I agree this is indeed quite obvious from the sutta. But of course samadhi and right thought are intertwined. What you practice in meditation is what you take along in the rest of the day.

In my experience all 5 practices are helpful, and the order has a reason. Doing by force is only the last resort. I found it's most effective to apply whatever method you need at the time instead of picking just one. I personally think it's also very likely the Buddha practiced all 5 methods (perhaps not close to his enlightenment, but at the very least in previous lives), although I agree they are not mentioned in the two-ways-of-thinking sutta. That's because they all are quite natural in a way.
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

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Hi reflection,

I agree with you that all five methods can be used to let-go of unwholesome thoughts/sensual desires during daily life practice as well as meditation. But I consider such letting-go as the fourth step for the practice of renunciation after the third step using the 2nd method, comprehending and familiarizing the drawbacks/danger of sensual pleasures (and the reward of renunciation) thoroughly (please see my previous post if interested).

As to the diversity of sensuality, although in some suttas worldly/household mental pleasure was not included in sensuality, in four suttas (MN137, DN22, SN 27(1+2) III 232, and SN 27.8) craving for worldly/househould mental pleasure was actually included in sensuality:

“… desire & lust for … speculating on mental objects) (SN 27(1+2) III 232), “… craving for mental objects” (SN 27.8), “… the joy that arises when one regards as an acquisition the acquisition of mental objects cognizable by the mind — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, connected with worldly baits — or when one recalls the previous acquisition of such mental objects after they have passed, ceased, & changed" (MN 137), … “The mental faculty … The mental objects … are endearing & alluring” (DN 22).

One possibility is that the Buddha added worldly mental cravings to sensuality in later teachings. Another possibility is that he taught differently according to different levels of his audience. Anyway I'd rather include in my practice the renunciation of worldly mental cravings/attachments in addition to the five cords of sensual cravings/attachments.

Among worldly mental cravings/attachmens, the craving to satisfy/insure/secure self and to prove/affirm self is the strongest, and the attachment to the notion/sense of self is also strongest. Not only so, such carving and attachment caused by delusion (wrong view, the identification of and attachment to the 5 aggregates as self) is actually the cause of dukkha, the cause of all that we want/cling to and don’t want/object to. If we can use right view to truly practice anatta and remove this craving/attachment, then we cut sensuality at the root.

To my understanding, while the Buddha taught mainly law of karma and dukkha of sensuality for the mundane path, he actually taught how to practice Right Thinking/Intention for the supramundane path by perceiving the five aggregates as anicca/dukkha/anatta, as he taught in his second sermon that enlightened all the five stream-winners to arahants. He taught us:

"This is not me. This I am not. This is not myself" (SN22.59).

Nothing should be clung to as "I" or "mine".

I adapted this teaching into:

The craver/clinger is not "me".
It is not "I" who is craving/clinging (or The desire/attachment is not "mine").
The desired/clung to does not belong to "me" and has nothing to do with "me".

Ven. Anada also taught in Thag 21:

1224. "Your mind is enflamed because of distorted perception. Shun the aspect of beauty associated with passion. (A)

1224B. "See constructions ['all conditioned things comprised in the five aggregates'] as other, as painful, not as self, (and thus) extinguish strong passion; do not burn again and again. (B) 1226. "Contemplate the signless['ThagA explains this as the distinguished contemplation of impermanence, because it pulls away the sign of permanence, etc.'] and cast out the underlying tendency to conceit. Then by the penetration of conceit you will go about at peace."

It's probably better to combine both the mundane and supramundane approaches for practicing renunciation. Thanks and metta,

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