Samatha to See Gods.

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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:34 pm

Rui Sousa wrote:I believe the Jhanas are a requirement for rebirth in the Deva realms, and a Deva's mind is more often than not in a Jhana state.

I guess a good way to comunicate could be to sit a do samatha. If a Deva recognizes in the human the ability to reach Jhanas it may have some interest in communication.


For rebirth in the brahma spheres, yes. Not the six paradises of the world. The jhanas lead to existence in one of 15 different brahma spheres. Here beings are made of thought-form. Life as worldly gods is much, much different, and no meditation is required to become a deva-god.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:47 pm

santa100 wrote:Is it possible to communicate with a Deva? Sure, but...one will need to attain the fourth jhana according to MN 79, Culasakuludayi Sutta (ref: http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Culasakuludayi_Sutta )


Is this the segment you were referring to? Or could you quote it yourself? I wasn't able to see where "communicating with devas," is expressed in the passage. And at any rate, I have communicated with worldly devas to some extent in my life--directly--without at all achieving the fourth jhana. However to communicate with brahmas, the jhanic achievements are of course necessary. This much is obvious.


Here, Udàyi, the bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires and thoughts of demerit abides in the first jhana: Overcoming thoughts and thought processs and the mind in one point internally appeased, without thoughts and thought processes abides in the second jhana. Again with equanimuity to joy and detachment, feeling pleasant with the body too, abides in the third jhana. To this the noble ones say abiding in pleasantness with equanimity. Udàyi, this is the course of actions, for realising the world of only pleasant feelings. `

ßVenerable sir, isn't there another course of actions, for realising the world of pleasant feelings, is this the only course of action?'

ßUdàyi, this is not the only course of actions, for realising the world of pleasant feelings only. There are other courses of action, for realising the world of pleasant feelings only. `


Even this segment deserves a lot of clarification. Does realization here mean "to perceive" that world? Is the world of pleasant feelings the sensual heavens, the meditative heavens, or is it both? In any case, he goes on to say that morality and wisdom is enough, even without meditation, to "realize the world of pleasant feelings."

I don't know if I have ever achieve the first jhana, but I'm confident that I have achieved the subtle jhana that is said to proceed the jhanas. However I repeat that I wasn't able to see the gods clearly until after I had begun intense meditation. After study, I learned this was quite normal among some practitioners, and the previous lives of the individual--I think--do influence this phenomenon.

No, I haven't tried taken photographs. I'll ask about it.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:29 pm

Daily meditation in a nearby area where gods dwell has produced some encouragement. A devi who I hadn't seen before found what I was doing was interesting, and lead me and my friend back to her dwelling, a very mossy area covered by trees. I'm going to start trying to talk to her about meditation, and see if I can establish some understanding of the community she's in, or near. Any more experience or knowledge from teachers would be helpful.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby yawares » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:46 pm

Son wrote:
Viscid wrote:Ever see any nagas?


I see one almost every time I visit a certain spring. It is very long and thick, but it doesn't have a human body like you see in pictures sometimes. This one in particular has an owl-like man face, you might would say, and antlers of some kind. He is very protective of the entire spring area. The spring itself is a state park. If you want to see the god for yourself, the park is called Ponce de Leon Springs State Park, in Ponce de Leon Springs, Fl. Beautiful place really.

Relating this to the topic, in my thinking if I could communicate with him in some way, I'm wondering how if at all he might help other beings around him, including the multitude of animals under his watch.


Image
Dear Son,
I truly love the picture....you know? since I watched LAKE PLACID(movie:Bill Pulman/Bridget Fonda) I didn't dare to swim in any lake only rowed a boat around....silly???
yawares :heart:


That's the spring pool, the place where I usually saw him is the dark shrouded area in the back, behind that gorgeous tree there.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:32 pm

While visiting the area of the devas nearby our neighborhood last night, we had a startling encounter. It was 2 AM and I hadn't seen hardly any devas at all. The deva who greeted us on an earlier night was missing. In fact the only devas I saw were the ones living in the air above one section of the path, and even they didn't seem to be "awake." However, once we reached our destination at the creek and sat down, apparently an unseen deva spoke into my friend's ear (she of course couldn't hear it), but the message came out of her mouth repeatedly regardless. She sad, "they're coming." I agreed with her, and so we left. On the way back, as the lightning strikes had become silent, I saw an asura cloaked in shadow standing on the path before us. It bothered me as usual, but my friend stopped dead in her tracks and stared at it. I asked her if she could see it, and she said, "what is that shadow standing there? There's someone right there." She was terrified, and when it moved, she recoiled. I was surprised that she could see it, having no meditative experience whatsoever, but realized that she had been cultivating openness of mind for a long time, and the asura was obviously wanting her to see him. As it is known, devas and asuras can reveal themselves to people if they wish to. Provided they're not completely blind.

Afterward, she began seeing devas that I saw too, and the experience was very illuminating for her. However, she was terrified the entire time.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby whynotme » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:04 am

lol, very interesting experiences. I think that I learn very much of the dhamma but if I suddenly see those being, I may be scared as hell. I think it is of course beneficial for those beings and for you if there is a dhamma bridge between you. The Buddha taught that giving dhamma is the best of give alms, and the merit return to you for this life or next lives. If you think native Americans learnt a lot from them, then future generations can learn a lot from them when many people seeing devas as superior to human.

The human is superior to deva in some ways, I don't remember exactly but the Buddha taught that, again, I don't remember exactly whether the Buddha taught that or not.

Thank you for sharing experiences,
Regards.

PS: What are the size of those devas? I mean how tall are they, similar to human or much bigger? Do you ever see pretas?
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby whynotme » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:19 am

And what about their photograph, did you try any? I think you should try infra red camera as well just in case they don't appear in normal camera. And what language do they use? English or not?

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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:28 am

whynotme wrote:lol, very interesting experiences. I think that I learn very much of the dhamma but if I suddenly see those being, I may be scared as hell. I think it is of course beneficial for those beings and for you if there is a dhamma bridge between you. The Buddha taught that giving dhamma is the best of give alms, and the merit return to you for this life or next lives. If you think native Americans learnt a lot from them, then future generations can learn a lot from them when many people seeing devas as superior to human.

The human is superior to deva in some ways, I don't remember exactly but the Buddha taught that, again, I don't remember exactly whether the Buddha taught that or not.

Thank you for sharing experiences,
Regards.


Thank you.

PS: What are the size of those devas? I mean how tall are they, similar to human or much bigger? Do you ever see pretas?


Most of them seem pretty normal size. The one that greeted us was somewhat over 7 feet tall with very large eyes. The devi I meet at the creek was small like a young girl. The devi who led me further back was about 6 feet tall. However where I used to live, there was a darker skinned deva who was almost twice my height and size. So they seem to vary in size, as well as beauty, luminance, and ability. Some of them live on the ground while I've seen others in the air, and of course many tree devas.

Yes, I've seen a few pretas. They're not helpful in any way. They either make people feel bad or cause harm, and to see them is very unpleasant.


whynotme wrote:And what about their photograph, did you try any? I think you should try infra red camera as well just in case they don't appear in normal camera. And what language do they use? English or not?


I think some of them use English just because they can, but they seem to have their own sort of special language that they all understand. This was clear in our conversation with an asura which was sometimes very strange to translate. As though he wasn't able to use English well.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Dmytro » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:30 am

Son wrote:But again my focus is to establish more of a relationship, for the sake of helping others and myself spiritually. In this direction.


Devas are much more able and powerful than humans, so humans are prone to come under influence (or even control) by devas, when communicating with them.

IMHO, the best way of applying such communication to spiritual development would be the practice of brahma-viharas with devas as recepients.
The higher devas are naturally kind (that's why brahma-viharas have such name), so one would be able to tune to them and develop such kindness as well.

Good luck!
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:43 am

Dmytro wrote:
Son wrote:But again my focus is to establish more of a relationship, for the sake of helping others and myself spiritually. In this direction.


Devas are much more able and powerful than humans, so humans are prone to come under influence (or even control) by devas, when communicating with them.

IMHO, the best way of applying such communication to spiritual development would be the practice of brahma-viharas with devas as recepients.
The higher devas are naturally kind (that's why brahma-viharas have such name), so one would be able to tune to them and develop such kindness as well.

Good luck!


the viharas are the four mental cultivations, and the way to the company of Brahma... Are you speaking of beings who dwell in that cultivation? As a meditator I have of course cultivated the four immeasurables in all corners of the mind. But all the communicating I've had with brahmas was not assuring because I wasn't clear on what they were. I don't have jhana attainments, so it was just them speaking to me of their own accord and I didn't have discernment of anything. One of them declared himself God and made me very averse.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby whynotme » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:55 am

Son wrote:Most of them seem pretty normal size. The one that greeted us was somewhat over 7 feet tall with very large eyes. The devi I meet at the creek was small like a young girl. The devi who led me further back was about 6 feet tall. However where I used to live, there was a darker skinned deva who was almost twice my height and size. So they seem to vary in size, as well as beauty, luminance, and ability. Some of them live on the ground while I've seen others in the air, and of course many tree devas.

Yes, I've seen a few pretas. They're not helpful in any way. They either make people feel bad or cause harm, and to see them is very unpleasant.

I think some of them use English just because they can, but they seem to have their own sort of special language that they all understand. This was clear in our conversation with an asura which was sometimes very strange to translate. As though he wasn't able to use English well.

Many thanks,

I think that at very least, you could teach them proper English, then teach them how to use computer and register an account here to discuss with us (joke)

Back on topic, have you been to asian countries like Thai, Sri Lanka, India, Burma? I think if you could travel there (where Buddhism is well known) you might see devas with different attitudes to dhamma as well as you could ask them about many things outside of a normal human knowledge (that relate to dhamma). Even you could bring a bridge between religion and modern science if you can have a steady communication with them and have the understanding of each other. Again, this could help many many more people even in the modern world if you can do such a job.

And your attitude bring people a lesson, the Buddha taught about respect devas, and you bow to them even they are inferior in the dhamma understanding, such a good attitude worth a mention. You indeed did good job in the past that let you enjoy an earth god life and then have divine eye in human form. You have good intention, I hope you the best on your way.

Regards.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby whynotme » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:36 am

I always like the idea that bring science and religion closer. Imagine if someone, not only Son but may be anyone with ability to communicate with devas could convince some of them to take some kind of scientific measurements and experiments. I.e what material made their body, how to translate concepts from Buddhism to modern language, i.e what and where is sineru, where do brahmas live in space? Where is the hell?.. If it can be done it will make a revolution in mankind's knowledge. Maybe bigger and more beneficial than the invention of PC, internet or whatever invention of mankind's history.
Ever see any nagas?

I see one almost every time I visit a certain spring. It is very long and thick

Dear Son,
How long and thick he is?

Regards
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:30 pm

whynotme wrote:I always like the idea that bring science and religion closer. Imagine if someone, not only Son but may be anyone with ability to communicate with devas could convince some of them to take some kind of scientific measurements and experiments. I.e what material made their body, how to translate concepts from Buddhism to modern language, i.e what and where is sineru, where do brahmas live in space? Where is the hell?.. If it can be done it will make a revolution in mankind's knowledge. Maybe bigger and more beneficial than the invention of PC, internet or whatever invention of mankind's history.
Ever see any nagas?

I see one almost every time I visit a certain spring. It is very long and thick

Dear Son,
How long and thick he is?

Regards


Like a big tree trunk, and probably about as long as a tree as well. These ideas have occurred to me as well throughout my life. However I wonder why the other people in Thailand for example who see devas have not accomplished any of these things yet. In fact, there seem to be no stories or published experiments involving experience with devas in this way. Supposedly monks in Thailand speak with devas, especially in the jungle, but where is this information being shared...? I'm not sure it is. Why? This is what puzzled me. I spoke to the devi who lives outside my friends house last night. She did not know what Dharma was or who Buddhas are. Sometimes, as I understand it, the reason devas are so disinterested in humans and why we can hardly see them or talk to them is because they experience time so much slower than we do (ergo, their minds are much faster and more refined). It was almost like it was annoying for her to even listen to what I was saying, and yet she appreciated the wisdom of Buddha and asked me to come back.

At any rate, these are interesting questions, we'll keep in touch.


http://abhayagiri.ehclients.com/pdf/books/BioMunAll.pdf
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby whynotme » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:49 pm

Son wrote:
whynotme wrote:I always like the idea that bring science and religion closer. Imagine if someone, not only Son but may be anyone with ability to communicate with devas could convince some of them to take some kind of scientific measurements and experiments. I.e what material made their body, how to translate concepts from Buddhism to modern language, i.e what and where is sineru, where do brahmas live in space? Where is the hell?.. If it can be done it will make a revolution in mankind's knowledge. Maybe bigger and more beneficial than the invention of PC, internet or whatever invention of mankind's history.
Ever see any nagas?

I see one almost every time I visit a certain spring. It is very long and thick

Dear Son,
How long and thick he is?

Regards


Like a big tree trunk, and probably about as long as a tree as well. These ideas have occurred to me as well throughout my life. However I wonder why the other people in Thailand for example who see devas have not accomplished any of these things yet. In fact, there seem to be no stories or published experiments involving experience with devas in this way. Supposedly monks in Thailand speak with devas, especially in the jungle, but where is this information being shared...? I'm not sure it is. Why? This is what puzzled me. I spoke to the devi who lives outside my friends house last night. She did not know what Dharma was or who Buddhas are. Sometimes, as I understand it, the reason devas are so disinterested in humans and why we can hardly see them or talk to them is because they experience time so much slower than we do (ergo, their minds are much faster and more refined). It was almost like it was annoying for her to even listen to what I was saying, and yet she appreciated the wisdom of Buddha and asked me to come back.

At any rate, these are interesting questions, we'll keep in touch.


http://abhayagiri.ehclients.com/pdf/books/BioMunAll.pdf

Many thanks,

I haven't been to Thai or Sri Lanka or other Therevada countries. In my country, Vietnam, AFAIK, some people may see something but they are extremely poor at science and even dhamma, and they let their ego play a big part in the explanation. Some people may see it accurately, but it seems they aren't establish any bridge between them and devas, they just saw, that's all, then they focused on the Nirvana, I guess. And even normal people don't believe them, or don't know whom to believe to because there are many traditions and explanations, let alone scientists. Not every country has a good education system as US or not every person has science background or is interested in scientific explanation, especially Asian countries. And I doubt if you tell this to a scientist in your country and they will easily believe in you.

Well, do those beings believe in rebirth? I think you could tell your story that you were a god as them then reborn as human, maybe it will attract their attention for their own benefit.

Regards.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:24 pm

whynotme wrote:Many thanks,

I haven't been to Thai or Sri Lanka or other Therevada countries. In my country, Vietnam, AFAIK, some people may see something but they are extremely poor at science and even dhamma, and they let their ego play a big part in the explanation. Some people may see it accurately, but it seems they aren't establish any bridge between them and devas, they just saw, that's all, then they focused on the Nirvana, I guess. And even normal people don't believe them, or don't know whom to believe to because there are many traditions and explanations, let alone scientists. Not every country has a good education system as US or not every person has science background or is interested in scientific explanation, especially Asian countries. And I doubt if you tell this to a scientist in your country and they will easily believe in you.

Well, do those beings believe in rebirth? I think you could tell your story that you were a god as them then reborn as human, maybe it will attract their attention for their own benefit.

Regards.


You're correct. Although many schools in America are just a joke unfortunately.

Some of them are simply aware of rebirth because they can see it, with the divine eye. Others haven't seemed to notice... And then naturally there are beings who are inclined to resist the idea altogether. I have never told a deva that story. Not sure but I'll let you know.

Now... to the problem of evicting an asura from this place. Negotiation was already attempted and now we're seriously planning on evicting him. Does anyone have any sources, references, or experience in evicting or expelling asuras from a house or an object of influence?
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:57 pm

Hi Son,

Try the meditation below:

"[6] "Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

With metta

Matheesha
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:31 am

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Son,

Try the meditation below:

"[6] "Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

With metta

Matheesha


You're saying positive samatha absorption will urge him to leave? Or is this to be effected in some other way?
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby whynotme » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:59 am

Just out of curiosity, do they cast shadow on the ground or another object? I mean are they transparent/opaque in visible light?

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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:28 am

whynotme wrote:Just out of curiosity, do they cast shadow on the ground or another object? I mean are they transparent/opaque in visible light?

Regards.


I don't know about translucent, but they exist with their own luminance. They have form and that includes solidity. I suppose you would say they're somewhat opaque. You can see what is behind them but that is because of gross light meeting your eyes. You see the deva with the divine eye, which is perceiving form and has the contact of eye-sight-consciousness. It's difficult to describe because unlike the fleshy eye, the divine eye does not see obscurations. I suppose the opaqueness depends on how focused you are in your divine sight at the time and how clearly they are revealing themselves to you. However in themselves they are not really translucent at all. This is a question of view.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby whynotme » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:12 am

Son wrote:
whynotme wrote:Just out of curiosity, do they cast shadow on the ground or another object? I mean are they transparent/opaque in visible light?

Regards.


I don't know about translucent, but they exist with their own luminance. They have form and that includes solidity. I suppose you would say they're somewhat opaque. You can see what is behind them but that is because of gross light meeting your eyes. You see the deva with the divine eye, which is perceiving form and has the contact of eye-sight-consciousness. It's difficult to describe because unlike the fleshy eye, the divine eye does not see obscurations. I suppose the opaqueness depends on how focused you are in your divine sight at the time and how clearly they are revealing themselves to you. However in themselves they are not really translucent at all. This is a question of view.

No, I think they are opaque and solid to divine eye. What I meant is something like this, transparent in one view but opaque in another view. Sillicon is transparent in infra red but opaque in normal light. Similarity, I want to ask that Devas are supposed opaque to divine eye but do they interact with normal light, i.e create shadow on the ground when they are block the light source, i.e the sun (in the scientific manner).

I just want to ask do they create any shadow on the ground when they appear? If there isn't any shadow on the ground then they don't interact with normal light even when revealing themselves. If so, one must try other wavelengths to capture their image, i.e infra red, ultra violet, x-ray.. Or they don't interact with any electromagnetic radiation at all

Below is a picture of a silicon wafer, under visible light, it blocks and reflects like a mirror, but under infra red, you can see through it like glass (see the light under it)

Image

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