YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness) - Dhamma Wheel

Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

SamKR
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby SamKR » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 am

Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)?

I am not asking about suttas on general impermanence; I am already aware of them. I am interested in suttas that talk about (or at least give hints) about momentariness (impermanence at its extreme)? I know Abhidhamma talks about it but I don't know if any Nikaya Suttas do.

Thanks a lot for your time.

:anjali:

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby cooran » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:36 am

Hello Sam,

I haven't had time to read this whole thread (64 posts) - but there may be some thing here:

Provenance of the notion of momentariness in the Theravada
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 38&start=0

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:43 am


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby Ben » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:48 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby robertk » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:55 am

This sutta:

Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso
(Exposition of the Sutta of the Eightfold Mystery)

Translated by Andrew Olendzki.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html


1. "Life, personhood, pleasure and pain
- This is all that's bound together
In a single mental event- A moment that quickly takes place.

2. Even for the devas who endure
For 84,000 thousand kalpas
- Even those do not live the same
For any two moments of the mind.


3. What ceases for one who is dead,
Or for one who's still standing here,
Are all just the same heaps
- Gone, never to connect again.

4. The states which are vanishing now,
And those which will vanish some day,
Have characteristics no different
Than those which have vanished before.

5. With no production there's no birth;
With "becoming" present, one exists.
When grasped with the highest meaning,
The world is dead when the mind stops.

6. There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

7. The vanishing of all these states
That have become is not welcome,
Though dissolving phenomena stand
Uncombined through primordial time.

8. From the unseen, things come and go.
Glimpsed only as they're passing by;
Like lightning flashing in the sky
- They arise and then pass away."

Kathaṃ ṭhitiparittatāya appakaṃ jīvitaṃ? Atīte cittakkhaṇe jīvittha,
na jīvati na jīvissati; anāgate cittakkhaṇe jīvissati, na jīvati na jīvittha; paccuppanne cittakkhaṇe jīvati, na jīvittha na jīvissati.

“Jīvitaṃ attabhāvo ca, sukhadukkhā ca kevalā;
ekacittasamāyuttā, lahuso vattate khaṇo.
“Cullāsītisahassāni, kappā tiṭṭhanti ye marū;
natveva tepi jīvanti, dvīhi cittehi saṃyutā.
“Ye niruddhā marantassa, tiṭṭhamānassa vā idha;
sabbepi sadisā khandhā, gatā appaṭisandhikā.
“Anantarā ca ye bhaggā, ye ca bhaggā anāgatā;
tadantare niruddhānaṃ, vesamaṃ natthi lakkhaṇe.
“Anibbattena na jāto, paccuppannena jīvati;
cittabhaggā mato loko, paññatti paramatthiyā.
“Yathā ninnā pavattanti, chandena pariṇāmitā;
acchinnadhārā vattanti, saḷāyatanapaccayā.
“Anidhānagatā bhaggā, puñjo natthi anāgate;
nibbattā ye ca tiṭṭhanti, āragge sāsapūpamā.
“Nibbattānañca dhammānaṃ, bhaṅgo nesaṃ purakkhato;
palokadhammā tiṭṭhanti, purāṇehi amissitā.
“Adassanato āyanti, bhaṅgā gacchanti dassanaṃ;
vijjuppādova ākāse, uppajjanti vayanti cā”ti.

Evaṃ ṭhitiparittatāya appakaṃ jīvitaṃ.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:57 am


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby Ben » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:59 am

Yes, he mentioned on his facebook page last night. Though I am not sure exactly when he is going. He could have already gone for all I know.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby cooran » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:11 am

Hello all,

Hope this isn't off-topic, again just a resource I came across, and not yet read:

The Buddhist Doctrine of Momentariness - A Survey of the Origins and Early Phase of this Doctrine up to Vasubandhu
http://www.scribd.com/doc/43691507/The- ... Vasubandhu

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby Ben » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:43 am

Dear all

Since Sam has asked for references from the suttas which support the notion of momentariness, I am moving this topic into the Classical Theravada Forum. To keep this topic tightly focused, for the purposes of discussion only sources from the Nikayas are considered authoritative.
Thanks for your cooperation

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]l.com..

SamKR
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby SamKR » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:13 am

Thanks everyone for your replies and for the links.
Cooran's link to past discussion and the book (thesis) is very useful.

Thanks robertk for Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso which, as pointed out by tiltbillings in the past thread, is a commentary. But I think it is authoritative as it is a part of Nikaya. I hope there might be similar others that talk about impermanence close to momentariness, suttas preferably.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:46 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

SamKR
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby SamKR » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:40 am

Last edited by SamKR on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:47 am


User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby robertk » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:24 am


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby Ben » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:31 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby danieLion » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:29 am

FYI:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11973&start=0

Topic title: "Living In The Present Moment" (can it be supported by the suttas?)

metta

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:33 am

Hi Daniel,

I don't think that the issue of "being in the present moment" is the same as the issue of "momentariness".

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:55 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:54 pm

Thanks Ancient Buddhism,

It's strange that that particular sutta is not very easy to find on-line...

In fact, according to Sutta Central it should be here:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ali-e.html
but I don't see it... Hmmm...

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:56 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


Return to “Classical Theravāda”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine

cron