Right way to cultivate samma sankappa?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Right way to cultivate samma sankappa?

Postby starter » Tue May 29, 2012 1:29 am

Hello Friends,

I'm wondering if the interpretation of Right Intention/thoughts of non-ill will as good will is accurate. I also wonder if the following teaching is in accordance with the Buddha's teaching on how to practice Right Intention/thoughts:

The intention of renunciation invites us to be willing to let go of attachments, to release control, to enter into situations without resistance, to practice generosity, and to cultivate contentment with what actually is occurring. Imagine bringing the intention of release into your day today. Is there something that you could let go of—perhaps the habit of rushing, or chronic judging that might block you from receiving the beauty and bounty that surrounds you? Take a breath; feel your body; and release the wish to control the outcome of your actions. Stay present, mindful, and balanced as you engage dynamically in your relationships and activities. [Are these for cultivating the intention/thoughts of renunciation from sensual cravings? Should the "beauty and bounty that surrounds you" (e.g. beautiful snow and sky) be included in sensual pleasures that we should detach from?]

The intention of non-ill will encourages the cultivation of loving kindness. Does an attitude of friendliness frequently pervade your encounters? It is especially helpful to pause before speaking to connect with the attitude of friendliness. Our voices communicate more than words. See what happens when you let good will and friendliness be at the forefront of each sentence that you speak. [It seems to me that this is more for cultivating metta. The Buddha pobably didn't really teach us this method in MN 19 for cultivating the intention/thoughts of non-ill will, but rather taught us using metta to remove ill will in another sutta about how to remove distracting thoughts.]

The intention of non-cruelty reminds us to prevent harmful actions, and to respond with compassion when we see pain or suffering. Are your habitual actions causing harm to yourself or others? Is there suffering around you that is calling for your attention? Perhaps there is something that you can do that would bring ease to a neighbor’s life, or contribute to a more harmonious community. [Should we cultivate compassion instead of the intention/thoughts of non-cruelty?]

As I understand from MN 19, the Buddha taught us to cultivate Right Intention/thoughts by discerning wrong thinking and right thinking among three types of thinking (sensuality, ill will, harming), abandon the wrong thinking, and encourage the right amount of right thinking. So I'm a bit confused by the above teachings.

Metta to all,

Starter

PS added: non-ill will should NOT be replaced by good will, and non-harming should NOT be replaced by compassion, because non-ill will and non-harming include upekkha.

I'd like to change all the words "right intention" used in my posts in this thread into "right thinking".
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby hanzze_ » Tue May 29, 2012 4:37 am

Hi Starter,

Compassion is right intention, right intention is compassion. And its upcoming Silas compassion in action with wisdom. That is important and that is why this kind of compassion is blameless and really effective. For one self and others.

starter wrote:Hello Friends,

I'm wondering if the interpretation of Right Intention of non-ill will as good will is accurate. I also wonder if the following teaching is in accordance with the Buddha's teaching on how to practice Right Intention:

The intention of renunciation invites us to be willing to let go of attachments, to release control, to enter into situations without resistance, to practice generosity, and to cultivate contentment with what actually is occurring. Imagine bringing the intention of release into your day today. Is there something that you could let go of—perhaps the habit of rushing, or chronic judging that might block you from receiving the beauty and bounty that surrounds you? Take a breath; feel your body; and release the wish to control the outcome of your actions. Stay present, mindful, and balanced as you engage dynamically in your relationships and activities. [Are these for cultivating the intention of renunciation from sensual pleasures? Should the "beauty and bounty that surrounds you" (e.g. beautiful snow and sky) be included in sensual pleasures that we should renounce?]


Actually yes, in thoughts, speech and physical deeds. All six mouths are included and reduce more and more to the actually needed (middle), the eye seeks to eats less pictures, the nose seeks to eat less smells, the moth, the ear, the skin seeks lesser pleasant touch... and the thoughts the self eating mouth-mouth (we love philosophies and perseptions)
Most tools to practice that more and more are found in the additional silas of the eight precepts and a start to some ascetic (form our worldly view) till the middle.


starter wrote:The intention of non-ill will encourages the cultivation of loving kindness. Does an attitude of friendliness frequently pervade your encounters? It is especially helpful to pause before speaking to connect with the attitude of friendliness. Our voices communicate more than words. See what happens when you let good will and friendliness be at the forefront of each sentence that you speak. [It seems to me that the Buddha didn't really teach us this method in MN 19 for cultivating the intention of non-ill will, but rather taught us using metta to remove ill will in another sutta about how to remove distracting thoughts.]

Here the tool to train is right speech and to cultivate the thought. Cultivation loving kindness is good, but better to focus on his actions first. Goodwill will increase hand in had with abstaining, step by step. When we just cultivate metta (even a wrong understanding of metta) we could cultivate attachments and even a kind of additional pride. So not harming is quite good and most effective, no need for love. And yes MN19 is great!

starter wrote:The intention of non-cruelty reminds us to prevent harmful actions, and to respond with compassion when we see pain or suffering. Are your habitual actions causing harm to yourself or others? Is there suffering around you that is calling for your attention? Perhaps there is something that you can do that would bring ease to a neighbor’s life, or contribute to a more harmonious community. [Should we cultivate compassion instead of the intention of non-cruelty?]

Also here you have the Silas and being mindful of them (keep them in mind) to cultivate the right behavior. Very important is to slow down. When we act fast, we have a different kind of mindfulness, with totally different aims (-> pleasure). That is why precepts are of so much layers, up to ones livelihood, which we naturally would need to change to increase this effective wheel of:

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort...

"One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort...

"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort...

"One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This is one's right effort...

"One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right livelihood: This is one's right effort."

— MN 117



starter wrote:As I understand from MN 19, the Buddha taught us to cultivate Right Intention by discerning wrong thinking and right thinking among three types of thinking, abandon the wrong thinking, and encourage the right amount of right thinking. So I'm a bit confused by the above teachings.

Metta to all,

Starter

I guess the right amount of thinking is therefor a hindrance, as we usually think that mindfulness (sati) has nothing to do with thinking. Keeping in mind, making decisions like it is told in MN19 need much thoughtfulness or a better word is Appamada. Its a kind of thinking that puts things into action, skillful actions.

How ever, right view does give rise to it and will bring also the needed pressure for right effort. Its for one self and for all others, we are helping us when we remember right view.

Appamada is the compactest tool, we even can make processes if there is no teacher available, nobody who explains.
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue May 29, 2012 6:43 am

Hi Starter
starter wrote:Hello Friends,

I'm wondering if the interpretation of Right Intention of non-ill will as good will is accurate. I also wonder if the following teaching is in accordance with the Buddha's teaching on how to practice Right Intention:

it isn't wrong!
Non-ill-will is at its simplest level just the absence of ill-will, do notice the intentions do not substitute the oposite, rather just remove the wrong intent. however its opposite would also be right intent.
in a situation where one would get angry we instead become friendly and have metta, that would be right intent also.
and I see nothing particularly out of place with what else it in your post.

[Should the "beauty and bounty that surrounds you" (e.g. beautiful snow and sky) be included in sensual pleasures that we should renounce?]

I would say we should renounce the attachment to them. and try it and find out


[It seems to me that the Buddha didn't really teach us this method in MN 19 for cultivating the intention of non-ill will, but rather taught us using metta to remove ill will in another sutta about how to remove distracting thoughts.]

just because it isn't implicit in one text doesn't mean it isn't useful.


[Should we cultivate compassion instead of the intention of non-cruelty?]

we should cultivate what is appropriate to cultivate.

remember the four upright efforts.
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Thoughts?

Postby starter » Tue May 29, 2012 8:13 pm

Hi thanks for the helpful comments. I agree that metta and compassion should both be used as tools/medicines for "getting rid of a coarse peg with a fine one" for gaining Samadhi as taught in MN 20, if/when we have the inclination toward ill will or cruelty, otherwise the Buddha's method in MN 19 is enough to end such unwholesome thoughts without causing new unnecessary attachments:

'Why don't I keep dividing my thinking into two sorts?' So I made thinking imbued with sensuality, thinking imbued with ill will, & thinking imbued with harmfulness one sort, and thinking imbued with renunciation, thinking imbued with non-ill will, & thinking imbued with harmlessness another sort.

"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with ill will arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with ill will has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding.'

"As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with ill will had arisen, I simply abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence." (MN19)

Metta to all,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby starter » Wed May 30, 2012 1:23 am

Hi friends, how do you interpret the first right intention -- "renunciation"?

At first I thought it's the renunciation from sensual pleasure. After reviewing the thread "Senuality doesn't equal to sensual pleasures" (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9233&hilit=+sensual), I realized that understanding is wrong. What we should renounce is not sensual pleasures [pleasing forms, …] themselves, but the passion/desire/cravings for sensual pleasures. So the first right intention should be resolving for renunciation from sensual cravings -- subdue desires for sensual pleasures.

I'd like to share again with you the following teachings about sensuality:

AN 6.63 Nibbedhika Sutta: Penetrative

"The passion for his resolves [in sensual pleasure] is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire.

"And what is the cause by which sensuality comes into play? Contact is the cause by which sensuality comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in sensuality? Sensuality with regard to forms is one thing, sensuality with regard to sounds is another, sensuality with regard to aromas is another, sensuality with regard to flavors is another, sensuality with regard to tactile sensations is another. This is called the diversity in sensuality.

"And what is the result of sensuality? One who wants sensuality produces a corresponding state of existence, on the side of merit or demerit. This is called the result of sensuality.

"And what is the cessation of sensuality? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of sensuality; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the way leading to the cessation of sensuality.”

MN139:

“‘One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

“Bhikkhus, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye…sounds cognizable by the ear…odours cognizable by the nose…flavours cognizable by the tongue…tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are called sensual pleasure – a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should not be pursued, that it should not be developed, that it should not be cultivated, and that it should be feared.

“Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures (probably better translated as sensual desire/cravings? Agama: 当愿我离欲.离恶不善之法。至得第四禅成就游。), secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna…the second jhāna…the third jhāna…the fourth jhāna. This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared."

I've to admit that I tend to think that sensuality should include not only the desire for the pleasure of the 5 senses, but also the worldly mental/intellectual pleasure of the sixth sense -- mental faculty. Although in the above cited suttas worldly mental pleasure was not included in sensuality, in the following four suttas craving for worldly/househould mental pleasure was actually included in sensuality:

DN 22:
"And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells. "The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mental faculty ..."Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations...mental objects ..."

MN 137:
"And what are the six kinds of household joy? ... The joy that arises when one regards as an acquisition the acquisition of ideas [mental objects] cognizable by the mind — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, connected with worldly baits — or when one recalls the previous acquisition of such ideas after they have passed, ceased, & changed: That is called household joy."

SN 27(1+2) III 232:
"Bhikkhus, desire & lust for seeing forms (hearing sounds, smelling odors, tasting flavors, speculating on mental objects) obstructs & corrupts the mind!

When a bhikkhu has overcome & left all these obstructing mental corruptions, his mind inclines towards inward withdrawal!

A mind prepared by withdrawal becomes fit & open for those higher mental states, that are to be realized by direct experience and true knowledge..."

SN 27.8
"Monks, any desire-passion with regard to craving for forms is a defilement of the mind. Any desire-passion with regard to craving for sounds... craving for aromas... craving for flavors... craving for tactile sensations... craving for ideas is a defilement of the mind."

I guess probably the Buddha added mental pleasure to sensual pleasure in later teachings. Anyway I'd rather include in my practice the resolve for subduing craving for worldly/household mental pleasure from speculation/ideas in addition to the five cords of sensual pleasure.

Welcome your input on how to cultivate Right Intention, which we might think we already possess but probably not yet. Thanks and metta,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby hanzze_ » Wed May 30, 2012 4:37 am

Starter,

form my view, even if we "cultivate" (in the meaning of maintaining keeping it in mind) right intention, we are just stronger the path factors we already have established. That means, we have a death point that we might reach.
It's good to remember what actually gives rise to right intention and that is right view, so if we are on to gain more right intention we have to focus on right view. It's clear that we need to straighten all established path factors and in regard of the following virtue section resulting from right intention, we often have a lot of intellectual bridges to cross over right livelihood.

How ever, if our right intention should be more natural, we need to turn the wheel one time that means to focus on all path factors already established, bring them their where one own capacity and situation is possible to and to give the meditative section its move.

"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

"This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success."

— AN 10.103


So when it is about sensuality it's maybe good just to see:

"This is stress, this is the origination of stress, this is the cessation of stress, this is the way to the cessation of stress."
(Like mentioned in your sutta MN139 as I just see.)

Seeing it's impermanence, seeing its origin, seeing its possible cessation and the way out of it. Than there is no real thought of "renunciation, renunciation" needed, the disinterest, dispassion will be their without a need of "good or bad" and without a doubt which makes it often to a burden to abstain.

So it's not so much a struggle, it's just a real knowingly open the door and go on.
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed May 30, 2012 6:38 am

Hi starter,
there are several teachings & practices also. refering to what you have mentioned being the direct mention, however also to Sila - restraint by means of the code of conduct (patimokkha) and all other forms of precepts mentioned and sense restraint. however it is in a general sense refering to non-covetousnesses, letting go, giving up... the third noble truth.
see also the Dvedhāvitakka Sutta MN19.8. The Mahācattārīsaka Sutta MN117. The selleka MN8 (?) (see my signature for the reference I am thinking of from the latter).

Whether or not the Buddha added it or it is a later addition, I agree with you that it is an original teaching, although it could of been added to show a neuance that was not redily seen as the language evolved.
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby starter » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:50 pm

Indeed renunciation of sensual desire is letting-go of worldly desire, whatever type of household wanting/craving (all belonging to greed). But before we can let-go such desires, we've to be able to discern what types of desire we should let go (that's why we should divide our thoughts into two groups as taught in MN19), to detect it as soon as they arise, and then apply the method the Buddha taught us in MN19 to let it go. I've realized more and more that the Buddha had actually taught us how to practice, only if we study, comprehend and follow his advice.

I don't know if "non-ill will" is the accurate translation of the second factor, and tend to think it's probably better to practice non-aversion (aversion includes anger, hatred, ill will ...), which is the Chinese translation of the second factor.

Metta to all,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:17 pm

starter wrote:Indeed renunciation of sensual desire is letting-go of worldly desire, whatever type of household wanting/craving (all belonging to greed). But before we can let-go such desires, we've to be able to discern what types of desire we should let go (that's why we should divide our thoughts into two groups as taught in MN19), to detect it as soon as they arise, and then apply the method the Buddha taught us in MN19 to let it go. I've realized more and more that the Buddha had actually taught us how to practice, only if we study, comprehend and follow his advice.

I don't know if "non-ill will" is the accurate translation of the second factor, and tend to think it's probably better to practice non-aversion (aversion includes anger, hatred, ill will ...), which is the Chinese translation of the second factor.

Metta to all,

Starter

Non-ill-will is accurate, aversion also carries connotation of a pulling away from something, which ill-will doesn't and anger/hatred are more extermal manifestations of ill-will
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby hanzze_ » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:39 am

Starter,

from my understanding "being resolved freedom from ill-will" is the factor which goes direct against delusion, while renunciation goes against greed (lobha), and harmlessness goes against hatred (dosa), freedom from ill-will goes against deadlocked views (moha), struggle and positions maybe freedom form enmity would be a better translation.
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby starter » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:38 pm

Hi thanks for the comments. To my understanding, non-sensual desire and renunciation (letting-go of sensual desire) is against greed (1st part of craving, but not the craving for being and non-being), non-ill will (probably non-hostility is a better translation?) and non-harming is against aversion (but not the more subtle level of aversion), both of which encompass non-wrong view (right view of law of karma) at the mundane level of practice. As the 2nd factor of the 8-fold path, Right Thinking/Resolve will lead to Right Speach/Conduct/Livelihood as the basis for Samadhi to obtain the Right View. That's why non-delusion is only at the level of comprehending the law of karma at this stage, together with renunciation and non-ill will these three will purify out conduct.

I tend to think that the second level of non-greed will include actual sense restraint (non-craving for being and non-being will be the third stage of non-greed, probably after reaching the stage of non-return). The second level of non-aversion will include more subtle level of aversion (irritation, resistance, anger, ...). And the second level of non-delusion will include anicca/dukkha/anatta. The following practice is done at a higher level:

"Sariputta, a bhikkhu who desires to abide in voidance (emptiness) most of the time should reflect. When going for alms along a certain path, or in a certain region, or returning along a certain path, does interest, or greed, or anger, or delusion, or aversion, arise in my mind on account of forms cognizable by eye consciousness? ..." http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... dhi-e.html

Metta to all,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:09 am

Starter,

What if you put "non-craving for being and non-being will" into the rubric non-ill will/non-hostility/moha as the root problem? Well it is turning and comes always to the root again.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby starter » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:09 am

"What if you put "non-craving for being and non-being will" into the rubric non-ill will/non-hostility/moha as the root problem? Well it is turning and comes always to the root again." -- I think the root is ignorance and delusion.

Thanks and metta,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby starter » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:09 pm

Hi Friends,

Do you think we should include the desires not to have some (worldly) things in our cultivation of sensual desire? To cultivate renunciation from sensual desire, I check/review what I wanted/didn't want to see/hear/smell/taste/touch for the five senses, and what I wanted/didn't want in terms of the 8 worldly winds for the 6th sense, which seems to be a good way to guard the sense doors. It's surprising to notice that some very experienced practitioners' sensual desires for worldly beauty, cleanness (e.g. not tolerating even a spot on glass window), praise, satisfaction, comfort ...

To me, the 2nd factor of Right Intention, anger/hostility/ill will, seems to be more a feeling than desire, so I check/review my feeling of resistance/irritation/anger/ill intention to cultivate non-ill will.

I'd like to hear how you cultivate Right Thinking/Intention, would appreciate your recommendation of some good Dhamma talks on this topic. Thanks and metta,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention/Thoughts?

Postby starter » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:35 pm

Hi, I'd like to share my understanding concerning how to cultivate renunciation, and would like to get your input:

1) First step: understand the true meaning of sensual desire (any hankering for the pleasures of the six senses that disrupts the peace/steadfastness/stillness of the mind; any worldly/household wanting/clinging) and renunciation (let-go; the escape from sensuality/burning fire, the happiness/peace/ease/freedom obtained not from satisfying desire/hunger itself, which in fact causes mental/bodily disturbances, but from the subsiding of the desire for "trading candy with gold"), comprehend sensual desire entirely -- learn the breath/diversity of sensual desires,their various manifestations, and lust-inducing objects.

In addition to the suttas on the six strings of sensuality (see the suttas cited in the previous posts of this thread), are there any other suttas/talks detailing the breadth/diversity of sensual desires and their various manifestations?

2) Second step: be clearly aware of and fully comprehend the arising and subsiding of sensual desire -- detect it as soon as it arises, know how sensual desire comes to arise (through unwise attention to lust-inducing objects) and when/how it subsides (through wise attention to remove the attention from lust-inducing objects).

3) Third step: comprehend and familiarize the drawbacks/danger of sensual pleasures and the reward of renunciation thoroughly. When we are grasped by greed -- wanting more/better/greater, ask ourselves what's the price for the gain? "No loss no gain"; when there's more and more (gain/profit) somewhere, there accompanies less and less (contentment/peace) somewhere else. Is the gain worth the price?

AN 9.41
...
"So it is, Ananda. So it is. Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: 'Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.' But my heart didn't leap up at renunciation, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven't pursued [that theme]. I haven't understood the reward of renunciation; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.'

"Then the thought occurred to me: 'If, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of renunciation, I were to familiarize myself with it, there's the possibility that my heart would leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace.'

"So at a later time, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at renunciation, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. Then, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation..."

For more relevant suttas see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... sensuality" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ven. Bodhi:
"But even the pleasure of success is not unqualified. We worry that we might lose the ground we have gained. We feel driven to secure our position, to safeguard our property/territory, to gain more, to rise higher, to establish tighter controls. ...
But all the objects of desire are impermanent. Whether it be wealth, power, position, or other persons, separation is inevitable, and the pain that accompanies separation is proportional to the force of attachment: strong attachment brings much suffering; little attachment brings little suffering; no attachment brings no suffering."

4) Forth step: learn to let go by understanding and wisdom, not by "driving Nature out with a pitchfork".

MN 19: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd like to recommend a good sutta lecture on MN 19 by Ajahn Brahmali (http://media.bswa.org/sutta_study/Brahm ... _03_25.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), while Ven. Bodhi's lecture on this sutta must be known to our friends.

Ananda's advice to Vangisa on overcoming lust: Thag 21

[Vangisa:]

1223. "I burn with sensual desire, my mind is enflamed (with passion). Out of pity please tell me, Gotama, the effective extinguishing of it."

[Ananda:]

1224. "Your mind is enflamed because of distorted perception. Shun the aspect of beauty associated with passion. (A)

1224B. "See constructions ['all conditioned things comprised in the five aggregates'] as other, as painful, not as self, (and thus) extinguish strong passion; do not burn again and again.

1225. "Devote the mind, one-pointed and well-composed, to the contemplation of foulness. Let mindfulness be directed towards the body and be full of disenchantment for it.

1226. "Contemplate the signless['ThagA explains this as the distinguished contemplation of impermanence, because it pulls away the sign of permanence, etc.'] and cast out the underlying tendency to conceit. Then by the penetration of conceit you will go about at peace." [using the approach of anicca/dukkha/anatta]

AN 4.10:
"And what is unyoking from sensuality? There is the case where a certain person discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape (how there is the non-arising of it in the future)from sensuality. When he discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from sensuality, then — with regard to sensual objects — he is not obsessed with sensual passion, sensual delight, sensual attraction, sensual infatuation, sensual thirst, sensual fever, sensual fascination, sensual craving. This is unyoking from sensuality."

For more see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Renunciation.

Thanks and metta,

Starter

PS: the first step to cultivate right intention/thought might be non-unrighteous greed, non-ill will/non-hate, non-wrong view for the mundane path. [06/11/2013]
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby starter » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:24 pm

Hi I'd like to recommend the following relevant Dhamma talks:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/?s ... nunciation (Joseph Goldstein)
2009-04-17 Satipatthana Sutta - part 41 - The Noble Eightfold Path: Right Thought, Part One - Renunciation 54:34

Insight Meditation Society - Forest Refuge: April 2009 at IMS - Forest Refuge
In collection Satipatthana Sutta Series
1991-11-09 Karma: The Power Of Renunciation 61:43

As I understand, in these two talks, renunciation was cultivated as:

1) Applying/living the wisdom of the understanding of the law of karma to practice right intention (for non-addiction/non-attachment); ask ourselves "What am I addicted/attached to? What am I keep struggling with?"
Then ask ourselves: "Is this (what we desire/want/cling to) really necessary? Is this really helpful (beneficial)?"

2) Letting go of the unskillful (intention for sensual desire/ill will/harming) in the mind without negative self judgment -- the power/ability to say "NO" to the mind in a gentle loving way, not by force but by comprehension and wisdom;

3) Renunciate complexity, and go back to simplicity; go over our daily routine, let go of those unnecessary or unbeneficial habit/pattern, or try to change a habit and observe how difficult it is to change it (e.g. how we brush our teeth -- always starting from the left side? Then try to start from the right side instead) [also check things that we use/do and our belongings (e.g. is it necessary to have so many clothes/shoes?)]

4) Be mindful of our thinking, and let go of papanca (those I/me/mine stories) and come back to the present moment.

5) Try to observe 8 precepts on a regular basis.

6) Conservation of energy: to avoid the leak of energy by renunciation;

Note: the contents in parentheses are not in the talks.

I also enjoyed the following talk by Kamala Masters:
2011-10-05 Renunciation, the Happiness of Letting Go

This talk gave some detailed daily life examples on how to recognize/letting-go of desires/attachments for pleasant mental experiences/feelings, e.g. attachments to learning/ideas/opinions/being right/to have our opinions heard and approved ...

Sensual desires, especially the desires of the sixth sense, are actually much more complicated than we would probably think of. The general reflection on eight worldly winds are probably not sufficient, considering many subtle and diverse desires/attachments of the mind. Or a more thorough/detailed understanding of the 8 worldly winds would help.

I'd appreciate your sharing of some good talks on how to cultivate renunciation. Thanks and metta,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby starter » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:27 pm

I'm thinking about integrating right intention with yoniso manasikara into the daily mental/verbal/bodily conducts as a way of cultivating right intention. This would be especially helpful for overcoming thoughtless and rash (re)actions, if we can slow down, calm down, and remain calm during daily life so that we can pause to examine our thoughts, our intention, our approach and the potential consequence(s) of our conduct as well as the circumstance/environment before letting our mouth open or before pressing that “post” or “send” button. I wish I can always pause and ask myself: “What is the purpose of these words/actions? What am I trying to accomplish with these words/actions? Are they intended for renunciation or for sensual desire? Are they intended for making peace or for harming? What will this do to me/others? How can I approach this in a more beneficial way?”

Metta to all,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby daverupa » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:56 pm

starter wrote:stop to examine our thoughts, our intention, our approach and the potential consequences of our conducts as well as the circumstances/our environments before letting our mouth open or before pressing that “post” or “send” button. I wish my mind can always stop and ask myself: “What is the purpose of these words/actions? What am I trying to accomplish with these words/actions? Are they intended for renunciation or for sensual desire? Are they intended for making peace or for harming? What will this do to me/others? How can I approach this in a more beneficial way?”


This is very similar to the advice given to Rahula. I think I would prefer to say that rather than stopping the mind in order to analyze thusly, one ought to generate energy and strive to not stop analyzing thusly, whether before, during, or after any particular act of the body, speech, or mind.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby starter » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:15 pm

Hi dave,

thanks for the comment. If one has already developed the habit of wise reflection before each action, then of course he doesn't need to pause and ask those questions. But pausing for wise reflection before actions is at the moment very necessary for starters like me. May I ask how you developed such wise reflections without the need to pause before each action?

It's a bit puzzling that in MN 61 the Buddha taught us to reflect upon the nature (wholesome or not) and consequence (harmful or not) of an action only. He didn't teach us to reflect upon the intention of an action, neither did he ask us to dwell upon, analyze and improve an action to be conducted. Nevertheless, he did indicate "But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do." So I guess it's alright to reflect upon "How can I approach this in a more beneficial way?".

MN 61:
... "Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do." ...

Metta to all,

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Re: Right way to cultivate Right Intention?

Postby daverupa » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:31 pm

I can't see a difference between reflecting on intention and reflecting on mental acts, except that the latter is perhaps more inclusive.

Just as with every aspect of the gradual training, it is easier with the proper preliminaries in place - so, living a lifestyle of walking around having chit-chats all day, eating three meals, some music & internet peppered in there, and then an hour of some manner of meditation... slow progress for sure.

Rather, meditation is an intensified engagement with what one should be striving to do all the time anyway: minute-by-minute six-senses restraint, food restraint, sampajanna, and so forth. Buddhists also used to be known for their preference for silence. Meditation is better when such a foundation is given careful attention; lessening the cacophony of daily living seems essential, and the attitude of throwing sense input back the way one would throw a fish back into a lake is useful.

I benefit from having a job that is highly repetitive and which doesn't require much interaction with people, as well as introversion which means I have a handful of friends, and all but one of those lives far away. So, it's very quiet very often, and that's very helpful.

Watching boredom is helpful - usually it means you're getting dangerously close to some good quiet.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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