SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

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Sam Vara
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

Post by Sam Vara »

Susima was able to attain all three levels, step by step, fairly quickly.
I wouldn't dispute that he did, but how do we know this? Is there evidence in the Sutta, or is it from elsewhere?
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mikenz66
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

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robertk wrote:Notice how we have a comparative sutta from the chinese agamas thAT is utterly different, Dhammawise, from the original pali. And yet so often we hear claims of " the suttas are true (but not Abhidhamma) because they are the same as the agamas( "Abhidhamma is different")
Yes, I pointed out in these threads another case where there is a rather important difference, to do with the permanence (or not) of liberation of an Arahant:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=11630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 81#p174483" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And there is MN 117 Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
which seems to be the only sutta where the idea of mundane and supramundane right view is expressed:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1255#p15705" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

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Now on that occasion a number of bhikkhus had declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One, saying: “We understand: Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.” The Venerable Susı̄ma heard about this, [121] so he approached those bhikkhus, exchanged greetings with them, and then sat down to one side and said to them: “Is it true that you venerable ones have declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One, saying: ‘We understand: Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being’?”
Spk: Those bhikkhus, having received a meditation subject from the Teacher, entered upon the three-month rains residence, and during the rains, striving and struggling, they attained arahantship. At the end of the rains they went to the Teacher and informed him of their attainment. When Susīma heard about this he thought: “Final knowledge (aññā) must be the supreme standard in this Dispensation, the essential personal transmission of the teacher (paramappamāṇaṃ sārabhūtā ācariyamuṭṭhi, lit. ‘teacher’s fist’). Let me inquire and find out about it.” Therefore he approached those bhikkhus.

The stock description of the five abhiññās that follows is commented upon in detail in the Visuddhimagga, chaps. 12 and 13.
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

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... Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, do you see beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and understand how beings fare on in accordance with their kamma?”

“No, friend.”

“Then knowing and seeing thus, do you venerable ones dwell in those peaceful deliverances that transcend forms, the formless attainments, having touched them with the body?”
Spk-pṭ: The formless jhānas and deliverance from perception (āruppajjhāna-saññāvimokkhā).
“No, friend.”

“Here now, venerable ones: this answer and the nonattainment of those states, how could this be, friends?”

“We are liberated by wisdom, friend Susı̄ma.”
BB: Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ āvuso Susīma.

Spk: He shows: “Friend, we are without jhāna, dry-insighters, liberated simply by wisdom” (āvuso mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatten’ eva vimuttā). Spk-pṭ: Liberated simply by wisdom: not both-ways-liberated (na ubhatobhāgavimuttā).

BB: While Spk seems to be saying that those bhikkhus did not have any jhānas, the sutta itself establishes only that they lacked the abhiññās and āruppas; nothing is said about whether or not they had achieved the four jhānas. It is significant that Susīma’s questions do not extend to the jhānas, and it is even possible (though contrary to the commentaries) that nijjhānaka should be understood, not as the deprivative “without jhāna,” but as an agent noun from nijjhāna, pondering, hence “ponderers.” In any case, the sutta goes no further than to distinguish the paññāvimutta arahant from other arahants who have the six abhiññās and the formless attainments, and thus it offers nothing radically different from the Nikāyas as a whole.

BB: The commentaries explain the paññāvimutta arahant to be of five kinds: those who attain one or another of the four jhānas, and the “dry-insighter” (sukkhavipassaka) who lacks mundane jhāna but still has the supramundane jhāna inseparable from the noble path (see Sv II 512,19-28). On the contrast between paññāvimutta and ubhatobhāgavimutta arahants, see MN I 477-78; Pp 14, 190-91.
MN 70 Kitagiri Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  • "Monks, there are these seven individuals to be found in the world. Which seven? One [released] both ways, one released through discernment, a bodily witness, one attained to view, one released through conviction, a Dhamma-follower, and a conviction-follower. ...
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

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Then the Venerable Susı̄ma rose from his seat and approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, and reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. [The Blessed One said:]

“First, Susı̄ma, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.”
Pubbe kho Susīma dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇaṃ.

Spk: Insight knowledge is “knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma,” which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is “knowledge of Nibbāna,” which arises later.
  • Spk-pṭ: The “stability of the Dhamma” is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammānaṃ ṭhitatā taṃsabhāvatā): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is “knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma.”
BB: See too n. 51 n. 105.
  • Note 105: Spk: The knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma (dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa ) is the knowledge of the principle of conditionality. For the principle of conditionality is called “the stability of the Dhamma” because it is the cause for the continued occurrence of phenomena (pavattiṭṭhitikāraṇattā); the knowledge of it is “the knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma.” This is a designation for just this sixfold knowledge.
BB: A chapter on dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa is at Paṭis I 50-52, where it is explained as the knowledge of the relations between each pair of factors in paṭicca-samuppāda.
“What do you think, Susı̄ma, is form permanent or impermanent?”
–“Impermanent, venerable sir.”
–“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”
–“Suffering, venerable sir.”
–“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”
–“No, venerable sir.”
Spk: Having known him to be capable of penetration, the Buddha speaks thus giving a Dhamma teaching with three turns, at the conclusion of which the elder attained arahantship. Spk-pṭ: The “three turns” (teparivaṭṭaṃ) are by way of the turning over of the three characteristics in relation to the five aggregates.

BB: The catechism on the three characteristics recurs throughout the Khandha-saṃyutta, as at 22:49, 59, 79, 80, 82, etc.
e.g. the second discourse:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

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“What do you think, Susı̄ma, is form permanent or impermanent?”
–“Impermanent, venerable sir.”
–“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”
–“Suffering, venerable sir.”
–“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”
–“No, venerable sir.”
For any commentator (either a revered near-contemporary of the Buddha, BB, or someone here on DW) to know that Susima had achieved "insight knowledge" or "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma", then either they are aware of some unexplicated textual detail, or they know something of Susima from another source.

If we held a poll here on DW with the above questions, many of us would give the same answers as Susima, wouldn't we? I can't see from the text alone that Susima "knows" any more than I would appear to know, notwithstanding any commentarial traditions to the contrary...
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

Post by mikenz66 »

That's an interesting point, Sam. The pattern here is the same as many other suttas, which go on to explicitly say... "and X was now an arahant..." or similar.

However, if we read the suttas as intellectual pondering then, of course, anyone here could answer yes to all of those questions, which conclude with:
"Do you see that from the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of fabrications?"

"Yes, lord."
Perhaps the key is to unpack what exactly is meant by:
Do you see...?
:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

Post by Sam Vara »

Agreed. I think a lot of suttas with this format bring us back to what we were discussing a couple of weeks ago:
Then Ven. Pavittha said to Ven. Musila, "Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death'?"
Most of us are doing no more than running through the alternatives to "truly personal knowledge". And as you rightly point out, the third-person account of Susima's liberation or breakthrough is lacking here. And to this we can add our knowledge that he is at the outset a thief of the Dhamma...
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Re: SN 12.70: Susima Sutta — About Susima

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Then the Venerable Susı̄ma prostrated himself with his head at the Blessed One’s feet and said: “Venerable sir, I have committed a transgression in that I was so foolish, so confused, so inept that I went forth as a thief of the Dhamma in such a well-expounded Dhamma and Discipline as this. Venerable sir, may the Blessed One pardon me for my transgression seen as a transgression for the sake of future restraint.”

“Surely, Susı̄ma, you have committed a transgression in that you were so foolish, so confused, so inept that you went forth as a thief of the Dhamma in such a well-expounded Dhamma and Discipline as this. ...
BB: Dhammatthenaka. The formula for confession and pardon is also at 16:6 (II 205,10-16).
See:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(6) Ovàdo: Advice
Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
  • “Surely, bhikkhus, you have committed a transgression—so foolish, so confused, so inept were you—in that, having gone forth in such a well-expounded Dhamma and Discipline, you competed with each other in regard to your learning….
    But since you see your transgression as a transgression and make amends for it in accordance with the Dhamma, we pardon you for it. For it is growth in the Noble One’s Discipline when one sees one’s transgression as a transgression, makes amends for it in accordance with the Dhamma, and undertakes future restraint.”
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