the great vegetarian debate

Where members are free to take ideas from the Theravāda Canon out of the Theravāda framework. Here you can question rebirth, kamma (and other contentious issues) as well as examine Theravāda's connection to other paths
nathan
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby nathan » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:54 pm

pink_trike wrote:
nathan wrote:
pink_trike wrote:If you have a better view, lay it on me...I'm open to it.
Sure. There is no 'we' just as there is no 'me'. There is a meat-resonating-device like the skin of an apple on the surface of the earth. You are more than welcome to remain a part of it for as long as you like. You can identify with 'me', 'we' or 'it' forever if you wish. It isn't any more or less than what it is if you don't. As you will then.
:namaste:

Of course there is no "me", "we", or "it. Good on you for noticing. But what you haven't seemed to notice is that not everyone else has. So the best we can probably do is model behavior that mirrors the essence of the teachings, if not the letter. That isn't just pretend suffering we're inflicting on living beings. We have the potential to stop doing it. Right here, right now. We can model this for others. All humans are monkeys...so let's use the "monkey see, monkey do" phenomenon wisely.
I don't disagree with anything you've posted in the thread Mr. Trike. I'm simply not optimistic about any of this as I have been working in these kinds of areas quite actively for decades now. Unfortunately those of us who are 'modeling' all sorts of alternatives are not considered 'models' by more than a handful (we DO continue in it regardless of quantitative results) of the mass of monkeys who are filing sheep-like towards their corporate slaughter and it will be messy for all of us, like it or not. I have no difficulty at all envisioning the future the Buddha describes for us (in, I wish I could remember which sutta it is!) wherein the human species, alone, is reduced to living underground in a world with no sunlight, feeding upon each other, and dying before ten years of age. I don't see any indications yet of any viable counter-currents running against the strong current of human and world affairs which appears inexorably compelled to take things in this direction. The sun looks particularly brilliant at sunset, so to speak. I hope to be proven wrong of course but would rather continue to present things unflinchingly in 'these terms' for the 'monkeys'. I consider it, 'fair warning'.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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David N. Snyder
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Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:28 am

I found this article over at our other site: http://www.dharmawheel.net/

sraddha wrote:
An interesting article for Buddhists:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 31,0,0,1,0
Vegan Buddhist Nuns Have Same Bone Density As Non-vegetarians!

Great study! Not too surprising, in my opinion. Vegan foods, especially green leafy vegetables are loaded with calcium and I have heard that the calcium from the green veggies is actually better absorbed by the body and bones than the animals sources, (such as cheese and milk).

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Cittasanto
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:08 am

but what is the bone density of the average lay person who is vegan or vegi?

there are studies which show that these diets don't necesarily negatively affect bone density in a way which would cause problems later in life such as osteoporosis but none which show bone weight to be on a par with meat eaters.

what has more caffene, 1kg of coffee beans or 1kn of tea leaves? tea leaves
what has more caffene one cup of coffee or one cup of tea? one cup of coffee
Edit - just to show that apearences can be deceiving when it comes to actual intake, in comparison to volume comparison

here is a snippet of an article http://cbs2.com/optimumwellness/Bone.De ... 01849.html
Many people, including most physicians, suggest that vegans are at risk for osteoporosis due to their lower protein and calcium intake. In this study, the vegan woman averaged about 370 milligrams of calcium in their daily diet. The current recommended level is 1000 milligrams daily. Non dairy and non-animal sources of calcium include fortified orange juice, fortified cereal, white beans and most beans, tofu, nuts and seeds, carob, dark green leafy veggies (especially collards, turnip greens, beet greens), figs, rhubarb, butternut squash, acorn squash, and molasses. Keep in mind that bone health and integrity does not depend on calcium alone.
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

Individual
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Postby Individual » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:10 pm

TheDhamma wrote:I found this article over at our other site: http://www.dharmawheel.net/

sraddha wrote:
An interesting article for Buddhists:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 31,0,0,1,0
Vegan Buddhist Nuns Have Same Bone Density As Non-vegetarians!

Great study! Not too surprising, in my opinion. Vegan foods, especially green leafy vegetables are loaded with calcium and I have heard that the calcium from the green veggies is actually better absorbed by the body and bones than the animals sources, (such as cheese and milk).

Two questions to examine, however:
1) How long have they been vegans?
2) Is the bone density of nuns lower than that of the average population? (Could it be that eating only one meal a day makes them both have comparably low bone-density that is therefore less distinguishable?)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:58 pm

Individual wrote:Two questions to examine, however:
1) How long have they been vegans?
2) Is the bone density of nuns lower than that of the average population? (Could it be that eating only one meal a day makes them both have comparably low bone-density that is therefore less distinguishable?)

The article did not say how long they have been vegans, but it did mention that the non-vegans were of the same age.

The nuns did not have significantly less bone density from the other group, which was from the average population, same ages as the nuns.

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:25 pm

I thought I would bump this poll up in case there are some who have not 'voted' yet in this poll.

On another site, with Buddhists from all traditions, the voting is about 50-50 but here where it is predominantly Theravadins, the vegetarian percentage is higher. This goes against much conventional thinking that Mahayana = vegetarian, Theravada = non-veg. But of course the reality is that there are a high percentage of vegetarians and non-vegetarians in both Mahayana and Theravada.

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nomad
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby nomad » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:55 am

I am a straight meat-eater, but hope that one day I can make a change and possibly go vegetarian. I’ve considered it on several occasions and even tried to abstain for a short amount of time, but it seems like too much of a change at this point in my life. I feel like I am too busy sorting out the many other details of my existence that I feel are more important to my spiritual path. However, I always leave my options open.

~nomad

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"I am because we are." -Xhosa Tribal Saying

kannada
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby kannada » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:05 am

Tex wrote:DISCLAIMER: Voting intended for Theravadins only please; discussion is of course welcomed from all traditions.

With respect to Tex's wishes I did not vote, however I have been a vegetarian for the last 36 years...

Regards
Just a view - nothing more...

adamposey
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby adamposey » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:53 pm

I've chosen to go with a middle way on this matter. I do not want to take a hardline "yes" or "no" answer. During my admittedly limited research into Buddhism and Theravada specifically this topic has come up and I've found this to be the best answer without going to an extreme: "Yes, but..."

What I mean by that is that the bhikkus, who are supposed to be an example for us, are not necessarily strict vegetarians. They are supposed to accept the generosity of others, and should that include meat, then so be it. What that says to me is that it is best to minimize one's footprint of death in the world to the greatest extent possible and becoming a vegetarian is a means to that end. But that said there are cultural traditions in my country, etc., that meat plays a very important part in. Would I be a good buddhist to refuse the generosity of my family when they spend hours preparing a meat based food for holidays? Should I burden them with my special diet? In my case I've decided the answer is "no," and so I'll be a vegetarian when it comes to my personal decisions of what to buy for myself, but when it comes to others offering me food—all bets are off.

That said.. I'm Theravada but I don't know how I should answer this poll.

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Jechbi
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Jechbi » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:17 pm

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

André
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby André » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:14 am

I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm considering it. If I do become one, then I would still eat meat if I were offered it. That much am I certain of.

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Potato
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Potato » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:39 am

I voted before I saw the disclaimer. :(

I have been vegetarian for five years.

BudSas
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby BudSas » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:07 am

I don't vote because to me, it's a non-issue! :smile:

I consider myself as a sensible eater, I eat sensibly to keep my body healthy enough to practice the Dhamma, and the diet varies according to my own daily activities. Normally, I east mostly vegetables, fruits, and a bit of meat (read & white meats, seafood). However, for periods of intensive meditation retreat without heavy physical workloads, I eat less, and mostly on a vegetarian diet.

My main priority when eating is related to how to eat mindfully, one bit at a time, chewing slowly and carefully, noting the sensation at the tongue, the reaction of the mind to different taste, etc. To me, that's more important than to argue on the issue whether one should be a vegetarian or not.

BDS

Clueless Git
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Clueless Git » Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:19 am

'Lo all :)

I'm not Theravedan, nor strictly any other tradition in particular, so I haven't voted.

I am vegan and was already vegan before becoming interested in buddhism.

I suffer a peculiar mental disorder that prevents me from seeing meat without simultaneoulsy seeing the cycle of suffering it causes and gives me a strong desire for all sentient beings to be free of it.

My initial attraction to buddhism, was by my interpretation, that being able to see dependant arisings of suffering and wishing all sentient beings to be free of them is not a peculiar mental disorder.

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Dugu
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Dugu » Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:25 am

I am trying to become Vegetarian. I have decided to cut down my meat consumption so that my body and habit can slowly adapt to a full vegetarian way of life. And if I do become a vegetarian, I won't try and impose my preference on anyone who offer me food. I would just eat what they give, except meat that was specifically killed for me.

PeterB
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby PeterB » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:03 am

Clueless Git wrote:'Lo all :)

I'm not Theravedan, nor strictly any other tradition in particular, so I haven't voted.

I am vegan and was already vegan before becoming interested in buddhism.

I suffer a peculiar mental disorder that prevents me from seeing meat without simultaneoulsy seeing the cycle of suffering it causes and gives me a strong desire for all sentient beings to be free of it.

My initial attraction to buddhism, was by my interpretation, that being able to see dependant arisings of suffering and wishing all sentient beings to be free of them is not a peculiar mental disorder.

That wish is not evidence of a mental disorder. However that wish like all phenomena arises dependantly. Suffering is prior to the killing of animals for meat and that would be the case even if everyone on the planet ate a vegetarian or vegan diet. The first link in the chain of suffering is Ignorance, ignorance not simply of the effects of dukkha , but existentially. It arises with our arising, with our consciousness of our selves and our identity , whether that identity is that of burger eater or vegan. To wish the good of all creatures is commendable, to wish them free from suffering is evidence of compassion. There is something though which in terms of Buddhism is primary, and that is available to all what ever diet they choose. That is the Jhanas and/or Insight.

kannada
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby kannada » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:20 am

The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives He releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication
Master the art of karate,
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.

Bleating and babbling I fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.


http://www.pink-floyd-lyrics.com/html/s ... yrics.html
Just a view - nothing more...

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A Medic
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby A Medic » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:52 pm

Potato wrote:I voted before I saw the disclaimer. :(

I have been vegetarian for five years.



Same here I voted before I read the disclaimer. :oops: I voted the thinking about it. I've been going back and forth for years between being a vegetarian and not being one. I do personally think it its the best thing to do.

Northernbuck
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Northernbuck » Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:08 am

I am considering becoming a full vegetarian. Currently I avoid beef, but for health reasons. I do eat chicken and fish right now. I have to do some more research and then decide. Even though it has been a couple of months, I do consider myself a Theravada Buddhist.
But if this neutral feeling that has arisen is conditioned by the body which is impermanent, compounded and dependently arisen, how could such a neutral feeling be permanent? - SN 36.7

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Annapurna
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:22 pm

I ignored only Theravadins may vote. What am I? :tongue:

I eat very little meat. I've had times where I went without for a year.

I often notice I'm healthier when I don't eat meat.

The suffering of animals has made me cry oftentimes.

One of the worst experiences was to look into the eyes of a cow that was chained too shortly , so she couldn't lie down her head, and was lying in her shit on naked cement.

I asked the farmer: Shouldn't there be more straw underneath her? And isn't the chain too short?" and he apologized, saying, usually, yes, or that she is able to lie down.

So, what can I do. Call the cops? I considered it.

I haven't bought veal since then and that should be over 10 years now. .

In any case, I can still see how she looked into my eyes,and held my gaze, for a long time. THAT look I will never forget.

Also the sadness she felt. I did have a feeling she was asking me to do something. I sadly caressed her face.

Perhaps I failed. :weep:
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