At the maggaphala moment there is proper jhāna, vipassanā and other factors occurring.Modus.Ponens wrote:The possibility of people reaching arya states, without jhana doesn't mean that all people can do that. The universal path, i.e., the noble 8fold path, includes jhana.
Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
For anyone interested in the jhāna related pericopes found in the suttas, here is what the commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta has to offer for the following passage pertaining to the first jhāna:
- He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.
- This very body: this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. He drenches: he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. Steeps: to flow all over. Fills: like filling a bellows with air. Permeates: to touch all over.
His whole body: in this monk's body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [form] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hello Geoff,
This is interesting. Does this suggest that 5 sense consciousness still function in Jhāna, but that they do not disturb the person in Jhāna?
This is interesting. Does this suggest that 5 sense consciousness still function in Jhāna, but that they do not disturb the person in Jhāna?
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Well, the five sense faculties still function, but since the object-support of jhāna is a mental representation, it's accurate to say that the functioning consciousness is mental consciousness. As MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta informs us, "Consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises."Alex123 wrote:Does this suggest that 5 sense consciousness still function in Jhāna, but that they do not disturb the person in Jhāna?
Attending to a mental representation (nimitta) in jhāna doesn't require that all the five senses are totally shut down. There is a difference between attending to a mental representation via mental consciousness, and the formless attainments wherein the mind is totally isolated from the five sense faculties. In commentarial terms, attending exclusively to a cognitive representation already occurs at the stage of access samādhi. Thus, the engagement is exclusively that of the recognition of the counterpart representation via mental consciousness. The difference between access samādhi and and the first jhāna is the degree of stability of the jhāna factors. The difference between the first jhāna and the formless attainments is indicated in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga when they discuss the formless attainments and mention Aḷāra Kālāma not seeing or hearing the five-hundred carts passing by when abiding in a formless attainment.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
This is a very useful thread. Are all of these ideas available directly in the website http://measurelessmind.ca/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
Ñāṇa, is your paper "Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas" completed and available online?
I am asking because I would prefer to read a whole paper rather than in discrete posts of a thread.
Ñāṇa, is your paper "Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas" completed and available online?
I am asking because I would prefer to read a whole paper rather than in discrete posts of a thread.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
The most recent versions are available on the Samādhikkhandha section of the Measureless Mind website.SamKR wrote:This is a very useful thread. Are all of these ideas available directly in the website http://measurelessmind.ca/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
Ñāṇa, is your paper "Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas" completed and available online?
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
One wonders what the Commentators had in mind with the karajakāya/body born of action. Were they thinking of just the physical body, or the karajakāya in AN 10.5.1.9? There, the discussion is on kamma performed by the karajakāya being neutralised by the brahmaviharas. It looks like karajakāya in AN 10.5.1.9 is not limited to the physical body, but the kāyā/collections of body, speech and mind. That sutta discusses karajakāyena, the instrumental plural of karajakāya.Ñāṇa wrote:For anyone interested in the jhāna related pericopes found in the suttas, here is what the commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta has to offer for the following passage pertaining to the first jhāna:
The commentary explains:
- He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.
- This very body: this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. He drenches: he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. Steeps: to flow all over. Fills: like filling a bellows with air. Permeates: to touch all over.
His whole body: in this monk's body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [form] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.
I wonder too why the Commentators did not take a position on whether abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati (drenches, steeps, fills, permeates) involves cognising and feeling that Jhanic pleasure with the skin. But then again, they would have been constrained by the bar in MN 43 against the body feeling and being conscious of otherworldy pleasure.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Sylvester wrote:One wonders what the Commentators had in mind with the karajakāya/body born of action.
It's simply body and kamma http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi DmytroDmytro wrote:Sylvester wrote:One wonders what the Commentators had in mind with the karajakāya/body born of action.
It's simply body and kamma http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Are you parsing karajakāya as a dvanda compound into body + kamma? How do we deal with the -ja then?
I can't see how a dvanda would work in resolving the karajakāyā in -
It looks like it should be resolved as a tappurisa. Even SN 35.145 above suggests that mano/mind counts as purāṇa kamma (old kamma)yaṃ kho me idaṃ kiñci pubbe iminā karajakāyena pāpakammaṃ kataṃ
If I may trouble you, what do you think about the verbs abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati in the Jhana pericope? Are they under the control of the agent?
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi Sylvester,
On the other hand, it can be described as "In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No. It's just, as the Kamma sutta indicates, the body can be seen as the old kamma, so it is a product of kamma, born from actions (kamma).Sylvester wrote:Are you parsing karajakāya as a dvanda compound into body + kamma?
Yes, "he drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates".If I may trouble you, what do you think about the verbs abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati in the Jhana pericope? Are they under the control of the agent?
On the other hand, it can be described as "In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi Dmytro
Thanks.
Perhaps the resolution would be to resort to your alternative explanation, such that they become "automatic" inclinations. I think that seems to be the explanation favoured also by the Vimuttimagga. To that extent, I think the Commentarial explanation of each of the 4 verbs as having specific and distinct meanings may stem from the Abhidhammic method and this in fact obscures the nature of the verbs. Looking at the Pali, the 4 verbs seem to be synonyms arranged according to the waxing syllable principle.
Thanks.
I agree. This still leaves me wondering which of the 3 karajakāyā was meant by the Commentary to DN 2 in relation to the kāya pericopes. Body, speech or just mind?Dmytro wrote:No. It's just, as the Kamma sutta indicates, the body can be seen as the old kamma, so it is a product of kamma, born from actions (kamma).Sylvester wrote:Are you parsing karajakāya as a dvanda compound into body + kamma?
I can also agree with this (but see below). However, if these verbs are forms of sañcetanā or saṅkhāra, DN 9 would not allow them to exist within any of the Jhanic attainments. DN 9 is quite strict in excluding intention/volition from the jhānas.Yes, "he drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates".If I may trouble you, what do you think about the verbs abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati in the jhāna pericope? Are they under the control of the agent?
Perhaps the resolution would be to resort to your alternative explanation, such that they become "automatic" inclinations. I think that seems to be the explanation favoured also by the Vimuttimagga. To that extent, I think the Commentarial explanation of each of the 4 verbs as having specific and distinct meanings may stem from the Abhidhammic method and this in fact obscures the nature of the verbs. Looking at the Pali, the 4 verbs seem to be synonyms arranged according to the waxing syllable principle.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi Sylvester,
Apparently body, as in the Kamma sutta.Sylvester wrote:I agree. This still leaves me wondering which of the 3 karajakāyā was meant by the Commentary to DN 2 in relation to the kāya pericopes. Body, speech or just mind?
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi Dmytro
Thanks.
Why not the other 2 candidates?
Thanks.
Why not the other 2 candidates?
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi Sylvester,
As in the Kamma sutta.Sylvester wrote:Why not the other 2 candidates?
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi Dmytro
How about the other 5 old kamma in the Kamma Sutta, or perhaps the other 2 karajakāyā in the Karajakāya Sutta, AN 10.5.1.9?
The Commentary is uncharacteristically vague on this point, methinks. I wonder why the physical body might have been understood as being saturated with pītisukha born of seclusion, since these states are not phoṭṭhabba and, therefore cannot possibly make contact with kāya.
What do you make of this?
How about the other 5 old kamma in the Kamma Sutta, or perhaps the other 2 karajakāyā in the Karajakāya Sutta, AN 10.5.1.9?
The Commentary is uncharacteristically vague on this point, methinks. I wonder why the physical body might have been understood as being saturated with pītisukha born of seclusion, since these states are not phoṭṭhabba and, therefore cannot possibly make contact with kāya.
What do you make of this?