Depends, of course, upon what one means by jhana.Zom wrote:Satipatthana actually leads to jhana ,)
Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hello Manas, all,
Develop satipaṭṭhāna to remove (pahāna):
AN book of 9s,Satipaṭṭhānavaggo, has really helpful suttas AN9.63-71 . AN9.64manas wrote: Hi Alex,
yes that's correct, but I also read so very often about how jhana gives the mind the strength and clarity with which to penetrate to insight. So we need to be careful that we don't disregard the importance of jhana just because it isn't a permanent state. (I'm not suggesting you were disregarding jhana's importance, but I have heard it disregarded before, for the reason given above, despite Buddha's oft-sounded instruction to "go, do jhana!").
Develop satipaṭṭhāna to remove (pahāna):
- 5 things that weaken training (Sikkhādubbalya), 5 hindrances (Nīvaraṇa), 6 strings of sensuality (Kāmaguṇa), clinging to 5 aggregates, 5 lower factors, rebirth in 5 planes, 5 types of stinginess, 5 higher fetters, 5 barrenness of heart (Cetokhila), 5 bondages (Vinibandha).
- "the direct path (Ekāyano maggo) for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. MN10
- "In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release" - AN10.103
Last edited by Alex123 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
True, but also the other way around is true. The experience of jhana gives a lot of information to consider. There are quite a lot of lines in the satipatthana sutta pointing to this. Sati and samadhi, you can't practice one without the other.Zom wrote:Satipatthana actually leads to jhana ,)
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi AlexAlex123 wrote:Hello Manas, all,
AN book of 9s,Satipaṭṭhānavaggo, has really helpful suttas AN9.63-71 . AN9.64manas wrote: Hi Alex,
yes that's correct, but I also read so very often about how jhana gives the mind the strength and clarity with which to penetrate to insight. So we need to be careful that we don't disregard the importance of jhana just because it isn't a permanent state. (I'm not suggesting you were disregarding jhana's importance, but I have heard it disregarded before, for the reason given above, despite Buddha's oft-sounded instruction to "go, do jhana!").
Develop satipaṭṭhāna to remove (pahāna):No wonder satipaṭṭhāna is:
- 5 things that weaken training (Sikkhādubbalya), 5 hindrances (Nīvaraṇa), 6 strings of sensuality (Kāmaguṇa), clinging to 5 aggregates, 5 lower factors, rebirth in 5 planes, 5 types of stinginess, 5 higher fetters, 5 barrenness of heart (Cetokhila), 5 bondages (Vinibandha).
- "the direct path (Ekāyano maggo) for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. MN10
Satipatthana seems to deal with everything!!!
- "In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release" - AN10.103
the satipatthana sutta is indeed a treasure, and is the detailed explanation of samma-sati, which is itself just one limb of the Noble Eightfold Path. But if mindfulness alone could solve everything, the Buddha would have given us a 'Noble Onefold Path' rather than the 'Noble Eightfold Path'!
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
It is called "Ekāyano maggo" for a reason. It may be that deep development of satipatthana will develop all factors of N8P.manas wrote: the satipatthana sutta is indeed a treasure, and is the detailed explanation of samma-sati, which is itself just one limb of the Noble Eightfold Path. But if mindfulness alone could solve everything , the Buddha would have given us a 'Noble Onefold Path' rather than the 'Noble Eightfold Path'!
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
This may be of interest:Alex123 wrote:It is called "Ekāyano maggo" for a reason. It may be that deep development of satipatthana will develop all factors of N8P.manas wrote: the satipatthana sutta is indeed a treasure, and is the detailed explanation of samma-sati, which is itself just one limb of the Noble Eightfold Path. But if mindfulness alone could solve everything , the Buddha would have given us a 'Noble Onefold Path' rather than the 'Noble Eightfold Path'!
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/voc/ekayanomaggo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now, I don't know a lot of pali, so I can only repeat what the link above states. In brief, "the only way" or "the direct way" apparently are not good translations of ekāyano maggo. Better would be to translate it a "the path leading to only", but that of course doesn't say it isn't supported by the other 7 factors.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hello Reflection, all,
I understand that deep and consistent development of satipaṭṭhāna with right views from the moment one awakes to the moment one falls asleep will take care of other 6 factors. When one practices to be aware of "body in the body...", etc, it suppresses bad qualities and thus one keeps sīla. Also when one doesn't think about things as "this is I, me, mine, I want this, I don't want that", etc, it helps to maintain sīla. This is also right effort. Also continuous non-distracted awareness can serve as a basis for Jhāna. Without awareness you can't develop concentration, you can't keep precepts, you can't stop defilements from arising, you can't appropriately reflect on what occurs, etc...
And as my post with quotes show, satipaṭṭhāna does accomplish all else. Of course when one doesn't fully practice satipaṭṭhāna, other factors may not be fulfilled.
Dhamma can be summarized in FOUR words: "sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāyāti".
Another thing: If all and every mental/physical state is anicca, dukkha, anatta - then one doesn't need to construct anything special to see it. Just observe without commentary each and every state as it rises, persists, and falls. Gross or subtle state has these characteristics. It is delusion to believe that "ordinary" states of mind somehow do not have these characteristics, while special -jhanic- states of mind, do.
I understand that deep and consistent development of satipaṭṭhāna with right views from the moment one awakes to the moment one falls asleep will take care of other 6 factors. When one practices to be aware of "body in the body...", etc, it suppresses bad qualities and thus one keeps sīla. Also when one doesn't think about things as "this is I, me, mine, I want this, I don't want that", etc, it helps to maintain sīla. This is also right effort. Also continuous non-distracted awareness can serve as a basis for Jhāna. Without awareness you can't develop concentration, you can't keep precepts, you can't stop defilements from arising, you can't appropriately reflect on what occurs, etc...
And as my post with quotes show, satipaṭṭhāna does accomplish all else. Of course when one doesn't fully practice satipaṭṭhāna, other factors may not be fulfilled.
Dhamma can be summarized in FOUR words: "sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāyāti".
- "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes as something separate. SN35.80
Another thing: If all and every mental/physical state is anicca, dukkha, anatta - then one doesn't need to construct anything special to see it. Just observe without commentary each and every state as it rises, persists, and falls. Gross or subtle state has these characteristics. It is delusion to believe that "ordinary" states of mind somehow do not have these characteristics, while special -jhanic- states of mind, do.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
The fact that so many pali terms are not easily translated with a single english word, or even a meaning that can be fully conveyed to a modern audience such as ourselves, is why I have begun the long-term task of learning pali, little by little. Those who translate the texts do us a great service, but they cannot stop us from misinterpreting things, with the real meaning of 'ekayano maggo' being one case in point. We need to study pali!reflection wrote:This may be of interest:Alex123 wrote:It is called "Ekāyano maggo" for a reason. It may be that deep development of satipatthana will develop all factors of N8P.manas wrote: the satipatthana sutta is indeed a treasure, and is the detailed explanation of samma-sati, which is itself just one limb of the Noble Eightfold Path. But if mindfulness alone could solve everything , the Buddha would have given us a 'Noble Onefold Path' rather than the 'Noble Eightfold Path'!
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/voc/ekayanomaggo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now, I don't know a lot of pali, so I can only repeat what the link above states. In brief, "the only way" or "the direct way" apparently are not good translations of ekāyano maggo. Better would be to translate it a "the path leading to only", but that of course doesn't say it isn't supported by the other 7 factors.
namaste _/I\_
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
An interesting thing:
A person can have wisdom (adhipaññādhammavipassanā) without internal tranquility (cetosamatha):
Puggalapaññattipāḷi explains this to mean that one can have Awakening without rūpa or arūpa attainments:
A person can have wisdom (adhipaññādhammavipassanā) without internal tranquility (cetosamatha):
- Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness.AN4.94
Puggalapaññattipāḷi explains this to mean that one can have Awakening without rūpa or arūpa attainments:
- Kathañca puggalo lābhī hoti adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa? Idhekacco puggalo lābhī hoti lokuttaramaggassa vā phalassa vā, na lābhī rūpasahagatānaṃ vā arūpasahagatānaṃ vā samāpattīnaṃ. - Pug 61
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
AN 4.94 also includes this instruction for said person:Alex123 wrote:A person can have wisdom (adhipaññādhammavipassanā) without internal tranquility (cetosamatha):
- Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness.AN4.94
- As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.Alex123 wrote:Puggalapaññattipāḷi explains this to mean that one can have Awakening without rūpa or arūpa attainments:
- Kathañca puggalo lābhī hoti adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa? Idhekacco puggalo lābhī hoti lokuttaramaggassa vā phalassa vā, na lābhī rūpasahagatānaṃ vā arūpasahagatānaṃ vā samāpattīnaṃ. - Pug 61
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Which as I understand it come at the moment of awakening (maggaphala).Ñāṇa wrote:Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna isn't limited to magga & phala, it pertains to vipassanā as well. Saṃyuttanikāya Sāratthappakāsinī Sagāthāvagga Aṭṭhakathā 1.36 Saddhāsuttavaṇṇanā:Alex123 wrote:Which as I understand it come at the moment of awakening (maggaphala).Ñāṇa wrote:Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.
- Tattha lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ nāma vipassanāmaggaphalāni.
Therein, lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna is the name of insight, path, and fruit.
Vipassanā hi tīṇi lakkhaṇāni upanijjhāyatīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.
Insight meditates upon the three characteristics, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.
Maggo vipassanāya āgatakiccaṃ sādhetīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.
The path completes the task begun by insight, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.
Phalaṃ tathalakkhaṇaṃ nirodhasaccaṃ upanijjhāyatīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.
Fruition meditates on the characteristic of reality that is the truth of cessation, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hello Ñāṇa,
What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?
What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?
360. At the moment of the stream-entry path: Right view in the sense of seeing is then arrived at, right thought in the sense of directing onto is then arrived at, right speaking in the sense of embracing ... , right acting in the sense of originating ... , [74] right living in the sense of cleansing..., right effort in the sense of exerting..., right mindfulness in the sense of establishing ..., right concentration in the sense of non-distraction is then arrived at;
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
What about them Alex?Alex123 wrote:What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
The possibility of people reaching arya states, without jhana doesn't mean that all people can do that. The universal path, i.e., the noble 8fold path, includes jhana.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta