SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:08 am

SN 12.25 PTS: S ii 37 CDB i 559
Bhumija Sutta: To Bhumija
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


What is the origin of pleasure and pain? Ven. Sariputta clears up some misconceptions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Staying at Savatthi. Then Ven. Bhumija, arising from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta. On arrival, he exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, there are some brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made. There are other brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are other-made. Then there are other brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made & other-made. And then there are still other brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are neither self-made nor other-made, but arise spontaneously. In this case, friend Sariputta, what is the Blessed One's doctrine? What does he teach? Answering in what way will I speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, and answer in line with the Dhamma so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticism?"

"The Blessed One, my friend, has said that pleasure & pain are dependently co-arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. One speaking in this way would be speaking in line with what the Blessed One has said, would not be misrepresenting the Blessed One with what is unfactual, and would be answering in line with the Dhamma so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma would have grounds for criticism.

"Whatever brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made, even that is dependent on contact. Whatever brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are other-made, even that is dependent on contact. Whatever brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made & other-made, even that is dependent on contact. Whatever brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are neither self-made nor other-made, but arise spontaneously, even that is dependent on contact.

"That any brahmans & contemplatives — teachers of kamma who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made — would be sensitive to pleasure & pain otherwise than through contact: that isn't possible. That any brahmans & contemplatives — teachers of kamma who declare that pleasure & pain are other-made... self-made & other-made... who declare that pleasure & pain are neither self-made nor other-made, but arise spontaneously — would be sensitive to pleasure & pain otherwise than through contact: that isn't possible."

Now it so happened that Ven. Ananda overheard this conversation between Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Bhumija. Then he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he reported the entire conversation to the Blessed One.

[The Blessed One said:] "Excellent, Ananda. Excellent. One rightly answering would answer as Ven. Sariputta has done.

"I have said, Ananda, that pleasure & pain are dependently co-arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. One speaking in this way would be speaking in line with what I have said, would not be misrepresenting me with what is unfactual, and would be answering in line with the Dhamma so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma would have grounds for criticism.

"Whatever brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made, even that is dependent on contact. Whatever brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are other-made... self-made & other-made... neither self-made nor other-made, but arise spontaneously, even that is dependent on contact.

"That any brahmans & contemplatives — teachers of kamma who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made — would be sensitive to pleasure & pain otherwise than through contact: that isn't possible. That any brahmans & contemplatives — teachers of kamma who declare that pleasure & pain are other-made... self-made & other-made... neither self-made nor other-made, but arise spontaneously — would be sensitive to pleasure & pain otherwise than through contact: that isn't possible.

"When there is a body, pleasure & pain arise internally with bodily intention as the cause; or when there is speech, pleasure & pain arise internally with verbal intention as the cause; or when there is intellect, pleasure & pain arise internally with intellectual intention as the cause.

"From ignorance as a requisite condition, then either of one's own accord one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or because of others one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally. Either alert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or unalert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally. (Similarly with verbal & intellectual fabrications.)

"Now, ignorance is bound up in these things. From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance, there no longer exists [the sense of] the body on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the speech... the intellect on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the field, the site, the dimension, or the issue on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise."

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:59 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:03 pm


User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:18 am

Hi Mike,

Yes, this and similar views are expressed in several places in the Suttas. I suppose it is something like nihilism, and something like it is still around today. It is perplexing, though, not as a view in itself, but rather because it is taught by those who have a view on kamma. It seems to be more a denial of kamma and the efficacy of intentionality, than a view as to what it is.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:36 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:20 am


User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:47 am

The Buddha deals in several places with the relationship between the wish for release, and the practice for release. A really nice example is the Nava Sutta with its analogy of the chicks being hatched.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Mrs. Hen's wishes are not too relevant when it comes to big processes that she happens to be involved in...

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:22 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:40 pm

“Either on one’s own initiative, Ᾱnanda one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally."

BB: Spk identifies the three volitional formations—kāyasaṅkhāra, vacīsaṅkhāra, manosaṅkhāra—with the three types of volition mentioned just above. One generates them “on one’s own initiative” (sāmaṅ) when one acts without inducement by others, with an unprompted mind (asaṅkhārikacitta); one generates them “prompted by others” when one acts with a prompted mind (sasaṅkhārikacitta). One acts deliberately (sampajāno) when one acts with knowledge of kamma and its fruit; undeliberately (asampajāno), when one acts without such knowledge.

This text may be the original basis for the Abhidhamma distinction between sasaṅkhārikacitta and asaṅkhārikacitta, on which see CMA 1:4. (A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma), Page 32 in this on-line version:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... ma&f=false

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:14 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:25 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:57 am

“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation[*] conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.

[*] BB: The term used here is manosaṅkhāra, but from the context this is clearly synonymous with cittasaṅkhāra at SN 12:2.
[]
There is no textual justification for identifying the latter with the cittasaṅkhāra at SN 41:6 (IV 293,17)
[]
and MN I 301,28-29 (MN 44)
[]
defined as saññā and vedanā.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:41 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:04 am

Hi Sam,

The Commentary is using various Abhidhamma terms, which may or may not be useful to you. The Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma is useful in figuring out what Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to. I gave a link above somewhere.

Regarding the self/other thing, what I meant by quoting the other sutta here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11836&p=179893#p179893 was that I think that the error has to do with the concept of "self". Actions have consequences but there is no "self" and "other".

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Lazy_eye
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD
Contact:

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby Lazy_eye » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:23 pm


User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:57 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:32 am

I'm afraid I do find parts of this sutta difficult to follow. Not sure if it's a problem with the translations or that it's just difficult material...

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:38 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:44 am



Return to “Study Group”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine