The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:14 am

Greetings,

For anyone concerned about the Satipatthana Sutta, there is always SN 47: Satipatthanasamyutta... which (in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, ignoring notes) provides 41 pages of satipatthana goodness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:43 am


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Ben » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:59 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:00 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Ben » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:03 am

oh ok!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Dmytro » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:56 am

Hi,

Here's some translations from the Chinese Agamas by N J Smith, including the Chinese counterpart of Satipatthana sutta:

http://dhamma.ru/paali/trs.from_Agamas.7z

Best wishes, Dmytro


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:09 am


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Virgo » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:04 pm

Last edited by Virgo on Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Dmytro » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:07 pm



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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:03 pm

Thanks, Dmytro, nice to be able to read the translation, not just comments about it.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Kare » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:47 pm

I have to admit that I am thoroughly puzzled by this thread.

I have translated the Digha Nikaya into Norwegian and now I am working my way through the Majjhima Nikaya. In addition I have translated parts of the other Nikayas. The more I translate, the more I recognize modules in the texts. Part of my work then is to recognize modules, search for them in what I have already translated, and then mark, copy and paste. After copying and pasting, a final check to see if there may be minor variations, for example in names etc.

The texts that I already have translated thus functions as a database for those standard text modules, and the modules can be combined in different ways.

This shows something of what was going on in the minds and memories of the early monks who preserved the texts orally. I am deeply impressed to see how their brains worked like a computer with a good text processing program. They memorized texts, recognized basic text modules and often recombined those modules into new text units. Most (or all) of the texts in DN and MN consist of those modules, edited and recombined in new settings.

Thus it can be argued that only the shorter texts in the Anguttara and the Samyutta are original texts, since they often consist of only one such module. Or we may take the opposite view, and say that the shorter one-module texts are extracted from longer texts containing several modules. From such a view one might argue that the MN is more original. We simply do not know for certain.

So what? Are the Suttas all forgeries, then? Or are all the short Suttas forgeries? Or are all the long Suttas forgeries?

Those who bring the word "forgery" into this debate, obviously do not understand the nature of this process of memorizing and transmitting modules. And to criticize ONE of the long Suttas for consisting of modules, when this is a demonstrable aspect of ALL the longer Suttas, seems rather strange to me. This Bhikkhu Sujato who seems to be the one who brought up this theme, must be very ignorant of the Suttas. Or, if he knows the Suttas, has he got some hidden agenda by singling out ONE of the long Suttas for criticism?

I do not know. But it is difficult to take such a criticism, based on deep ignorance, seriously. :shrug:
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby piotr » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:57 pm

Hi Kare,

Don't you think that it would be more appropriate to draw any conclusions about venerable Sujāto's work after you know it directly by yourself to some extent? It seems to me that you're relying on second hand informations only.
Last edited by piotr on Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby daverupa » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:59 pm

, including a(nother) link to Bhante Sujato's work on the subject.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Kare » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:25 pm

Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:45 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:05 pm


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:25 pm


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Kare » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:31 pm

Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby daverupa » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:02 pm


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:16 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)



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