SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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daverupa wrote:Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
it is explaining the rounds of samsara, the dart is only one aspect of this.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

Several posters are objecting that a "psychological model" of Dependent
Origination does not make sense. They refer to the links "being", "birth"
and "old-age-and-death", as incompatible with any such model.

I cannot give a full explanation on this thread, but I will do so elsewhere.

Briefly, the psychological model interprets these three links as representing
views about self.

Regards, Vincent.
Why can you not do this here?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by daverupa »

Cittasanto wrote:
daverupa wrote:Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
it is explaining the rounds of samsara, the dart is only one aspect of this.
This assumes "rounds of rebirth" is the explanatory target of paticcasamuppada, but the target is "dukkha"; "rounds of rebirth" is subsumed under the category 'dukkha' by being included in the 12th nidana.
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Good point. Paticcasamuppada describes the dependent origination of dukkha, and as I understand it dukkha represents the mental dart only... But does this approach work with the "birth" and "being" nidanas?
It must; the birth nidana is not "births", but the conceiving on/in/around/from "my" birth; and similarly "my" death, encapsulating "my life" as a string of experiences happening "to me" and resulting in "my memories and values, who I am" - sakkaya-ditthi underwritten by asmimana, which is to say, avijja.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Good point. Paticcasamuppada describes the dependent origination of dukkha, and as I understand it dukkha represents the mental dart only... But does this approach work with the "birth" and "being" nidanas?
It must; the birth nidana is not "births", but the conceiving on/in/around/from "my" birth; and similarly "my" death, encapsulating "my life" as a string of experiences happening "to me" and resulting in "my memories and values, who I am" - sakkaya-ditthi underwritten by asmimana, which is to say, avijja.
So you're saying that it's not birth or being in the 3 realms which constitute dukkha, but the way we experience these things?

Spiny
Last edited by Spiny O'Norman on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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daverupa wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
daverupa wrote:Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
it is explaining the rounds of samsara, the dart is only one aspect of this.
This assumes "rounds of rebirth" is the explanatory target of paticcasamuppada, but the target is "dukkha"; "rounds of rebirth" is subsumed under the category 'dukkha' by being included in the 12th nidana.
no, it assumes samsara is a verb, something done. but as the list ends
Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
Dukkha is a characteristic of samsara so in describing samsara Dukkha is present, as is often the case. there are other characteristics which can be seen within DO, such as anicca which can be seen represented in both its forward and backward motions, or not-self as the sequence clearly describes a universal process not a functioning of a self as better seen in SN12.35

but how does your interpretation of birth fit with any of the suttas descriptions?
how about the SN15 group as an example?

but to answer a question earlier, and hopefully cover a few other points.
Spiny O'Norman wrote:But does this approach work with the "birth" and "being" nidanas? Does it make since to think about a Buddha experiencing physical birth, or indeed experiencing the process of "being" in the 3 realms, assuming that a Buddha is no longer subject to DO?
The Buddha was still subject to the previously accumulated cycle which commenced at his birth, as can be seen in texts such as the Anguilimala sutta, where Angulimala still received results of his previous deeds, there is still a process happening, Kamma still plays out (there are four kinds of Kamma, with an Enlightened being now solely doing "Neither Light or Dark Kamma"). They have broken the chain so the process will end in parinibbana, the final cooling, if the process ended at enlightenment there would be no teaching as the whole process would cease then, i.e. they would die at that point. remember an Arahant is still an individual even though all Arahants are of the same mind, which shows to some degree that there is a process still at work from there previous unenlightened state, otherwise they would all be one and the same in every way.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:This assumes "rounds of rebirth" is the explanatory target of paticcasamuppada, but the target is "dukkha"; "rounds of rebirth" is subsumed under the category 'dukkha' by being included in the 12th nidana.
I would have thought that "being/becoming" is descriptive of "rounds of rebirth", with individual births arising in dependence - see the extract below.

Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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daverupa wrote: Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
Both.

Ven. Sariputta:

"And what is stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful.[2] In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful. This is called stress.
...
Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
...
Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. This aging & this death are called aging & death.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As to how the Buddha dealt with the stress of his aging and death, I think the answer is in the Arrow Sutta.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by daverupa »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:So you're saying that it's not birth or being in the 3 realms which constitute dukkha, but the way we experience these things?
Until nibbana, any experience is via pancupadanakkhandha, and the fundamental upadana is attavada; in any event:
MN 44 wrote:"Friend Visakha, neither is clinging the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."
After nibbana, any experience is via pancakkhandha, until the final break-up of the aggregates - but note, that when talking about this breakup, we ought not say an arahat has died. Nibbana is without birth, without death.
Cittasanto wrote:but how does your interpretation of birth fit with any of the suttas descriptions?
how about the SN15 group as an example?
SN 15.* aren't discussing paticcasamuppada. :shrug: It's bewildering to suggest that unimaginable lengths of time are in any way fundamental to the akalika doctrine of paticcasamuppada.
Spiny O'Norman wrote:I would have thought that "being/becoming" is descriptive of "rounds of rebirth", with individual births arising in dependence
Again, no reason to make that nidana read "births". It is simply that with the thought "I was born" there is necessarily "I will die". You can't have agitation about death if you don't already buy into the delusion that "I was born". This is always past tense, because first one must think "I am" to get to "I am born of my parents" - it's a further accretion of attavada, and it always happens now if it happens at all.
kirk5a wrote:
daverupa wrote: Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
Both.

As to how the Buddha dealt with the stress of his aging and death, I think the answer is in the Arrow Sutta.
Well, let's have a look:
SN 36.6 wrote:"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.
The bodily dart is never attenuated in life as both the putthujjana and the arahat feel that dart. Paticcasamuppada/-nirodha is not to do with that physical dart at all.
Last edited by daverupa on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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daverupa wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:but how does your interpretation of birth fit with any of the suttas descriptions?
how about the SN15 group as an example?
SN 15.* aren't discussing paticcasamuppada. :shrug: It's bewildering to suggest that unimaginable lengths of time are in any way fundamental to the akalika doctrine of paticcasamuppada.
they are related to birth which is what the question (again put to you) was about.
the description of birth does not change whether in the paticcasamuppada sequence or the SN15 group.
Akalika means that it is true regardless of time frame, whether a Tathagata is present or not it is true, not that things are relevant or not in particular teachings.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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Cittasanto wrote:they are related to birth...
As simply as possible:

1. A sotapanna has seen paticcasamuppada for themselves, not theoretically.
2. A sotapanna need not have any psychic powers at all.
3. Therefore, seeing paticcasamuppada is necessarily unrelated to rebirth.

An understanding of paticcasamuppada cannot proceed on the basis of any notion of birth-as-rebirth.
Nanavira wrote:What temporal succession is akālika? For an ariyasāvaka, paticcasamuppāda is a matter of direct reflexive certainty: the ariyasāvaka has direct, certain, reflexive knowledge of the condition upon which birth depends. He has no such knowledge about re-birth, which is quite a different matter. He knows for himself that avijjā is the condition for birth; but he does not know for himself that when there is avijjā there is re-birth. (That there is re-birth, i.e. samsāra, may remain, even for the ariyasāvaka, a matter of trust in the Buddha.)

The ariyasāvaka knows for himself that even in this very life the arahat is, actually, not to be found (cf. Khandha Samy. ix,3 <S.iii,109-15> ...), and that it is wrong to say that the arahat 'was born' or 'will die'. With sakkāyanirodha there is no longer any 'somebody' (or a person—sakkāya, q.v.) to whom the words birth and death can apply. They apply, however, to the puthujjana, who still 'is somebody'. But to endow his birth with a condition in the past—i.e. a cause—is to accept this 'somebody' at its face value as a permanent 'self'; for cessation of birth requires cessation of its condition, which, being safely past (in the preceding life), cannot now be brought to an end; and this 'somebody' cannot therefore now cease. Introduction of this idea into paticcasamuppāda infects the samudayasacca with sassataditthi and the nirodhasacca with ucchedaditthi. Not surprisingly, the result is hardly coherent. And to make matters worse, most of the terms—and notably sankhāra (q.v.)—have been misconceived by the Visuddhimagga.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by kirk5a »

daverupa wrote: Paticcasamuppada/-nirodha is not to do with that physical dart at all.
Then what is your explanation for why Ven. Sariputta speaks of
"Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. This aging & this death are called aging & death. "
in his exposition of Paticcasamuppada/-nirodha?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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Hi Daverupa
That is retarded Logic and am out of this dialogue with you, it is fruitless and obviously has no sound evidence but plenty of eels wriggling.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by daverupa »

kirk5a wrote:Then what is your explanation for why Ven. Sariputta speaks of...
I fail to see the problem you see; can you phrase it in another way?
Cittasanto wrote:retarded
:anjali:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by kirk5a »

daverupa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Then what is your explanation for why Ven. Sariputta speaks of...
I fail to see the problem you see; can you phrase it in another way?
You said "Paticcasamuppada/-nirodha is not to do with that physical dart at all."

If it is not to do with that physical dart at all, then what is your explanation for why Ven. Sariputta describes aging and death as he does - as something that occurs to the physical body?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by daverupa »

kirk5a wrote:If it is not to do with that physical dart at all, then what is your explanation for why Ven. Sariputta describes aging and death as he does - as something that occurs to the physical body?
The term "aging & death" is never isolated from dukkha; it tends to serve simply as the first term in a chain, thus: aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. MN 141 clearly makes this point when it defines each of these terms (as well as "not getting what is wanted" and "pancupadanakkhandha") as all being part of the first truth, that of suffering.

In fact, here is an example of "aging & death" being dropped altogether:
SN 12.23 wrote:Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.
Here, where "aging & death" et al would normally go in the sequence, we have instead "stress & suffering", which makes the point that dukkha is the issue, not aging per se. Indeed, I can't get behind the claim that jati must refer to one's future birth because
SN 12.35 wrote:When this was said, a certain monk said to the Blessed One: "Which aging & death, lord? And whose is this aging & death?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. If one were to ask, 'Which aging & death? And whose is this aging & death?' and if one were to ask, 'Is aging & death one thing, and is this the aging & death of someone/something else?' both of them would have the same meaning, even though their words would differ. When there is the view that the soul is the same as the body, there isn't the leading of the holy life. And when there is the view that the soul is one thing and the body another, there isn't the leading of the holy life. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata points out the Dhamma in between: From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death."

"Which birth, lord? And whose is this birth?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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